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Author Topic: Shieldless Ships- an idea to replace Makeshift Shield Generators  (Read 4104 times)

xenoargh

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Just a quick thought that occurred to me today, because I was looking at the shieldless ships for another reason.

Makeshift Shield Generator is really not a great Hull Mod, largely because the ships that most-need it are:

A.  Typically under-powered, in terms of core Flux stats, especially Capacity.

B.  The Hull Mod doesn't address those problems, is a pretty lousy Shield, in terms of power (it has a lousy DPS-Flux ratio) and is generally so "makeshift" that it's useless; for the OPs, I'd much rather put ITU and a really-long-ranged weapon on those ships, if one's available (usually HVDs, since Heavy Maulers are too rare).

To address these ships and to provide an interesting mechanic for ships that wish to forego regular Shields in exchange for something a bit more potent if in a "sniping" role, I'd like to suggest that there be a special System for those ships that generates an invulnerable, short-term frontal shield.  

After the shield goes down, the ship's Flux is raised to 99% of maximum, no matter how much damage it took.  

This would give Hound / Cerebus a limited-time opportunity to get close enough to fire without taking damage on a narrow frontal arc, whilst leaving them entirely vulnerable to flank attacks, fighters, etc., etc.

Given that the changes to Beam ranges largely made that whole class of ships essentially useless in a major fleet engagement, this would give them a new purpose without significantly breaking the game's balance, and it would give them a unique niche role.  It would also feel a bit less frustrating than the Flares, which are not only one of the poorest-performing Systems, in terms of CPU (because of how they effect Missile AIs) but also the least-satisfactory in terms of real performance (Flares are not nearly efficient enough to protect these ships from serious attack, and do nothing about Beams, which effectively neutralize these ships as a theme).

As an alternative, doubling the Flux Capacity and improving the Flux Dissipation of the shield-less ships by about 150% would make Makeshift Shield Generator much more viable.
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Megas

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Re: Shieldless Ships- an idea to replace Makeshift Shield Generators
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2017, 11:15:56 AM »

The problem with long-range weapons is availability.  By the time I find enough such weapons to spare in endgame, frigates are obsolete except for one (ideally Tempest) to enable Pursuit and auto-resolve.  HVDs are not very common either.  Unless I farm Brilliants, they are perhaps less common than Maulers.  I can only farm Brilliants safely by endgame.  During the times when Hounds and Cerberus are useful, I can only spare weapons I can readily acquire from Open Market, meaning 700 range Arbalest or Heavy Mortar.

I do not mind the speed reduction from Makeshift Shield Generator because the most common Makeshift users is enemy AI, and at least more ships can force fights against them.  I dislike the speed penalty when I use it, but since the enemy will use it much more than me, better to have slower enemy so that it cannot play the AI's favorite coward game easily.

Okay, so which combat ships are shieldless?  Hound, Cerberus, Buffalo 2, Mudskipper 2?

The super shield system might be nice on Hound or Buffalo 2, although reduced speed on Hound means I might want flares for some chance to stop missiles since it will not be fast enough with a shield.  I do not want to trade mobility systems Cerberus and Mudskipper 2 have for it though.  (Mudskipper 2 has jets instead of flares, right?)
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xenoargh

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Re: Shieldless Ships- an idea to replace Makeshift Shield Generators
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2017, 11:31:06 AM »

Yeah, I was kind of thinking of the Hound / Cerebus / Loot-Pinata (er, Buffalo Mk. II) here. 

The Cerebus and Hound are designs in search of a problem; they're not really suitable for short-ranged firefights and aren't equipped to be effective mid-range combatants.  I generally don't use either at all, except as temporary storage space, because they're simply not competitive.  These two ships used to have a distinct role as assault ships and long-range snipers, until the Beam range buff made them uncompetitive.

The Buffalo Mk. II is everything a lightweight, poorly-armored support Destroyer that shadows a fleet should be, except that it's too slow and too vulnerable to Beams.  This might solve the second problem; a mobility System might address the first.

The movement penalty appears (at least to me) to be aimed at Luddic Path designs.  It's a poor fix to the core problem, which is that they're a little too inclined to avoid all fights when the player's trying to take them down (probably best addressed by giving them Aggressive Captains).

Anyhow, just my $0.02.  I feel like these ships deserve a little better niche role, so they have a point when used by players in "garbage balls", etc., rather than being a waste of Crew.
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Megas

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Re: Shieldless Ships- an idea to replace Makeshift Shield Generators
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2017, 11:42:33 AM »

Well, Hound and Cerberus are hybrids.  They are not great, but effective enough in an early-game fleet.  They are also disposable, if used as combat units instead of extra-fast freighters without civilian handicaps.  That is like asking Mule to fight as well as Hammerhead.

Hounds, I slap Makeshift, Arbalest/Heavy Mortar, and LMG/Vulcan then let them loose.  If they die, so be it, they were expendable.

I dislike Buffalo 2 because it is mainly a missileship, and has mounts about as awkward as an Apogee.

That said, the super shield system could be good on standard Brawler (and maybe Centurion), now that its Damper Field is a joke on it.  If not, I like to see Ammo Feeder restored on it.
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FreedomFighter

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Re: Shieldless Ships- an idea to replace Makeshift Shield Generators
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2017, 10:26:02 AM »

Have another hull mod that is better than MSG one? Like the with DTC and ITU. ITU is obviously better but it kinda rare and you need to find it. DTC already come by default so maybe make the MSG as default one too? Player should get access to all lousy low grade hull mod by default. It is inefficient but better than nothing. This might give us a bit incentive to find a better one since we get to taste the bad one but know the concept of how it work.
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Schwartz

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Re: Shieldless Ships- an idea to replace Makeshift Shield Generators
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2017, 11:24:08 AM »

I agree in principle that shieldless ships need a little love. And that the MSG right now has been given a downside that I don't think it deserved, seeing how it's a hullmod that's put on rust buckets only.

However adding another whole shield mechanic seems game-y. Let's not forget that this hullmod is supposed to be jury-rigged, and an invulnerability button is high-end. My wish for the standard MSG would be that it loses its downside - that's about it. Give Hound and Cerberus their speed back. They haven't got a lot else going for them.

Beam weapons are a problem for shieldless ships, yes. Had another idea in mind for that:

Add a hullmod that improves certain ship stats at the cost of removing the shield: It'll work on shieldless ships without a downside, and may have to be balanced around Enforcer, Dominator and Onslaught. Because Hound, Cerberus etc. are so weak by endgame that giving them an improvement via (rare) hullmod is not something to worry about. So what could we give them that won't drastically overpower the best low-tech ships?

Let's roll four issues into one: 1. Shieldless ships could use a buff later in the game.

2. Beams, even Tac Lasers, make fighting Hounds and Cerberi trivial, you basically can just watch them get chewed up at a distance. The 90° MSG is not the solution here either by the way.

3. Solar Shielding is pretty useless. Its primary benefit is very circumstantial. When do you *want* to be in a corona? Its secondary benefit is nearly negligible. 10% less beam damage taken is not a number that'll wow anybody. Beam damage is only ever a real threat when you fly a shieldless ship, or got into a ship with a bad shield arc and goofed.

4. AI can play shieldless just fine, but it gets in its own way when you have a low-tech ship with a crummy shield. Overloads ensue. A hullmod can fix this. Low-tech ships without shields are surprisingly tough, if you've ever played SS+ and used the Shield Bypass hullmod.

Kill Solar Shielding and add Reflective Plating instead: 5/10/15/20 OP, removes shield, reduces beam damage taken by 33% (or whatever sounds reasonable). Usable on shieldless ships, but not phase ships. You'd still get a choice between MSG (restored to its former mediocre glory hopefully) and Reflective Plating.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 11:28:11 AM by Schwartz »
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FreedomFighter

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Re: Shieldless Ships- an idea to replace Makeshift Shield Generators
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2017, 12:09:50 PM »

I find EMP is give shieldless ship the most pain and headache since a single Ion shot can disable their entire ship. Ion Blaster can shutdown Cruiser size too not to mention the fighter wing with Ion weapon (Claw, stop molesting my shieldless ship!). They need hullmod that give their armor some EMP resistance or prevent it from arc into another module until armor collapse. Flux Conduits mod doesn't do that for me unless kit it together with Automate Repair Unit but that is huge investment.
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xenoargh

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Re: Shieldless Ships- an idea to replace Makeshift Shield Generators
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2017, 01:36:57 PM »

@Schwartz:  none of that addresses the real issues with MSG ships.

1.  MSG ships are also typically crippled on Capacity and Dissipation.  Even if MSG was un-nerfed tomorrow (I have no idea why it was nerfed at all, it was hardly an abusable mechanic), it would still suck, because the ships that need it aren't equipped for "normal" shield stats and perform terribly.

2.  While the Beam Armor idea has merit, it'd have to be 90% or so for shieldless ships to be even roughly worth taking, and shieldless ships would need better Armor / Hull stats and room in their OPs for defense against Ion weapons, as above.

3.  This isn't merely a problem of, "they're sub-optimal midgame".  It's "they're never worth deploying at all".  Seriously, Hounds have been reduced to ships that I use for efficient cargo-hauling (and they're undercut there too, now).  The Cerebus has literally no point at all past the early game, and you don't typically have HVD's / Heavy Maulers then (or are mounting them on an Enforcer).

4.  There is no such thing as a "rare HullMod".  Either it's effective enough to bother grinding for* or it's not worth the bother.**  

In fact, I don't want to hear about "rarity" in terms of "balance" for SS ever again.  

The only way we can have true "rarity" is by having some Uniques in the mix or by having a Diablo-style RNG data per-weapon / per-ship system that creates some true "rarity" in the statistical sense, etc.***  If the game would be better with some unique ships / weapons / Hull Mods then fine, let's talk about that, but let's not talk about "rarity" like it's an actual fix to the problem of an entire thematic class of ships.****

The whole shieldless-ships-as-theme thing should just work; it should be interesting and worthwhile.



So, what could fix these ships as a theme?

1.  They could have built-in Hullmods that made them unable to mount shields ("Low Flux Performance", "Adamantium Armor Plating", "Hot Rodded" all sound like catchy names-as-explainations), but gave them serious bennies.

What would be worth not having a shield?

A.  Being able to kite, because of range; perhaps they can have an improved ITU that puts them a size-class up, because "they do not suffer Sensor interference from shields" or some other hand-waving.

B. Being able to tank Armor for reals; 99% absorption rates at 100% Armor rather than 85%, 50% min rather than 15%; basically, make them really quite tanky.

C.  Mobility; the Hound used to be uncatchable, pretty much; this isn't a bad thing, it gave them a role as "that ship you have to corner or make the AI screw up to shoot" rather than helpless vs., well, basically anything sensible.  Hound with ITU / HVD was actually not horrible; it's horrible now because it's just going to get eaten vs. Beams.

D.  Really good anti-Beam defense.  Like, good-enough that they're a hard-counter to Beam-heavy fleets.  This is a theme that should exist anyhow.

There are other ideas that might work, but the point is, if a ship's giving up Shields, it had better get a pretty amazing tradeoff... shields taking Soft Flux from Beams and not being vulnerable to EMP and getting buffed by Captain skills, etc., matter too much.

2.  They could be universally given enough OPs to buy all the things to make themselves somewhat viable with MSG's terrible flaws... or go for all the Armor and Hull protection mods and other toys.  And guns.  This wouldn't break anything or require a new system of mechanics; they'd just be jack-of-all-trades ships, able to go for a variety of configurations.  That isn't terrible as an idea; simply double their OPs, more or less, so that they can pile on Hull Mods.



*...in the sense of looking to see which Faction carries it and finding it after countless shopping expeditions- ooh, what fun!
**Having to waste your life on this Earth searching for something you need to make a core mechanic viable, given that this is RNG, is game design at its worst, imo.
***This is now not impossible, and I've even considered modding to Make It So, but I rejected it because it'll just encourage more boring grinding.
****Which it might be, in terms of power progression...
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Schwartz

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Re: Shieldless Ships- an idea to replace Makeshift Shield Generators
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2017, 02:37:46 PM »

Rarity as a game mechanic means you're likely only getting the thing by mid- or lategame. That was all I meant with that. You can get it by the time you might need it. You don't start with extra beefy Hounds when all you're fighting is Lashers and shieldless junkers in small pirate groups. Any hullmods you don't get from freely accessible markets are midgame+ items and can be called rare, IMO.

Heavily armoured ships are already quite good. This has mostly to do with how the AI handles them. Give a shield to an Enforcer and it will have to juggle flux, which makes it play more defensively. Lots of shots will hit the shield, and it's not a good shield. Every spike threatens an overload. Take that shield away and the same Enforcer has the flux reserves to keep going and win most flux duels easily. It takes some damage in the process but can deliver pressure all the way to the end. Bursty explosive weapons and HIL are a problem, but it's generally a more dangerous combatant without a shield cramping its style.

For properly fitted ships, I consider SS+ Shield Bypass an upgrade. And yeah, my suggestion is a working draft. The numbers could be higher. Higher armour absorption rates or general armour values though I would be against. Onslaught, Dominator etc. don't need the buff.
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Megas

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Re: Shieldless Ships- an idea to replace Makeshift Shield Generators
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2017, 07:31:50 AM »

The main reason why I put Makeshift Shields on ships is anti-missile.  If I rely on Hounds and Cerberus to kill things, I do not want the enemy fleet to unload every Harpoon at it and score a guaranteed kill or two the moment fleets spot each other.  With Makeshift Shields, the enemy is much less trigger-happy.  Sure, that AI can be exploited, but I generally do not bother with that.  Also, Makeshift Shields are good at blocking a few low-powered beams (like that LR PD laser from that pirate Buffalo 2) from causing damage.  The damage adds up over time if not blocked.

The speed penalty hurts when I use it.  When the enemy uses it, and it uses it much more than me, I do not need very fast ships to overtake those turtles and crush them before they run too far away.  Late in the game, my fleet has better ships, and Hounds and Cerberus are not used for combat anymore (maybe for hauling, but not for shooting), but the enemy still uses early-game fodder much more than the player.  In other words, the hullmod drawback is a net benefit for me because the enemies that use it are easier to catch and kill.

Now if we get new top-tier combat ships that strong but do not use shields by default, Makeshift Shields slowing ships down could be a problem.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Shieldless Ships- an idea to replace Makeshift Shield Generators
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2017, 08:48:04 AM »

For some ships and builds the shield is so much of a detriment I'd pay OP just to get rid of it. I'd love to have the opposite of makeshift shield gens as an option in vanilla.
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FreedomFighter

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Re: Shieldless Ships- an idea to replace Makeshift Shield Generators
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2017, 03:54:52 AM »

For some ships and builds the shield is so much of a detriment I'd pay OP just to get rid of it. I'd love to have the opposite of makeshift shield gens as an option in vanilla.

http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11018.0

This mod has a shield bypass hullmod. It disable the ship shield and increase flux dissipate by 50% of the original value.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Shieldless Ships- an idea to replace Makeshift Shield Generators
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2017, 05:52:01 AM »

I know ship and weapon pack has it. That's why I specified vanilla.
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