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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Surveying Skill Enhancement  (Read 5443 times)

King Alfonzo

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Surveying Skill Enhancement
« on: July 08, 2017, 01:06:35 AM »

Right now, Surveying skills only really add enhancements to surveying and nothing else. And while this is an important part of the game, I'm seeing that not a lot of people even bother with the surveying skill, largely due to the fact that it only pertain to surveying. What I wouldn't mind seeing is a slight enhancement to the skill, so they're useful for things outside of surveying. The idea I ad was the surveying skill can be interpreted as not only sensor scanning and equipment etc., but the equipment can also be used to detect finer details of sensor data.

For instance;

Level 1:
Surveying up to 50% hazard rating
The contents adn faction alignments of fleets are detected further away (specifically, when a fleet is detected, it spends less time as 'Unknown contact'. Does not extend sensor range or power.)

Level 2:
Surveying up to 100% hazard rating
Remote Survey skill
Detection range of derelicts, debris fields, stations, salvageable stuff etc. improved by 25%

Level 3:
Surveying up to any hazard rating
Surveying Equipment
Derelicts, stations etc. gain a colour to their outline depending on salvage rating once detected.
Debris fields gain a colour depending on possible salvage yield once detected.

Spoorthuzad

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Re: Surveying Skill Enhancement
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2017, 02:00:49 AM »

Derelicts, stations etc. gain a colour to their outline depending on salvage rating once detected.
Debris fields gain a colour depending on possible salvage yield once detected.


This is great! Won't have to check every field I come across now if this is implemented in some way. (Don't have to check every field anyway but I have this "itch" if I don't check it. Feels like I might have passed on some sweet loot or something)
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Megas

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Re: Surveying Skill Enhancement
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2017, 06:32:01 AM »

The reason not to bother with Surveying, and Salvaging for that matter, is I give up a permanent resource (skill point) for a temporary monetary benefit.  I can always grind more money.  I cannot grind more skill points.  Boosting Surveying and nothing else would be fine if Surveying gave a permanent benefit, which it does not in 0.8.x.
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Mr. Nobody

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Re: Surveying Skill Enhancement
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2017, 08:35:04 AM »

It would be amazing if you could level over 40 and every level over that you get to respec one point at a time.
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Megas

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Re: Surveying Skill Enhancement
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2017, 11:00:19 AM »

It would be amazing if you could level over 40 and every level over that you get to respec one point at a time.
I would rather have another skill point.
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Darloth

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Re: Surveying Skill Enhancement
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2017, 08:28:07 AM »

Another skillpoint would be fine, but if it were not available, would you rather have nothing or a respec point?

It would certainly allow tweaking of builds and removal of skills you don't like anymore in an organic way without removing Alex's original design goal of making skill point choice important since you can't have everything.

Improving the salvage skill so it has some other relevant benefits sounds really good, and I do like the suggestions here.  If anything, I worry they're still a little lacking.  Perhaps the salvage amount bonus should be moved down a little and the rank 3 skill should grant a higher chance to recoverable hulls from derelict ships?

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Megas

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Re: Surveying Skill Enhancement
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2017, 10:24:02 AM »

Another skillpoint would be fine, but if it were not available, would you rather have nothing or a respec point?
To be honest, if leveling gave respec points, I probably would not use them due to them feeling "Too Awesome To Use", especially if player can only level to about 50 to 60 (for 10 to 20 hypothetical respec points) due to steep XP requirements.

I remember hoarding similar rewards in Diablo 2.  Did not want to "ruin" my primary characters by using those rewards.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Surveying Skill Enhancement
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2017, 03:57:25 PM »

But your new bonuses have anything to do with surveying. Those are sensor skill bonuses, and there are already skills that buff sensors. You are slapping unrelated bonuses on pointless skills to make them interesting.

Really, spending skill points so you can click a button on a planet and get a pittance of cash isn't interesting (and everything is so cheap in the game so who cares?)

Survey and salvage rating skills should be dropped (for the player).

Instead, both surveying and salvaging should be accomplished with both/either:

a) Specalist officers who have either surveying or salvage skill, and who levelup to better levels of the skill by performing the actual task (not getting xp from combat), and whom you can dismiss when you're tired of them to make room for other officers.

and/or

b) Specalized ships (like the salvage rig) that actually improve your survey hazard rating for survey, or your salvage difficulty rating.

This was probably considered and abandoned during development for some reason (something like "oh, it isn't fun to make the player have a special ship to do a salvage"), but it turns out to be actually the superior way to implement. Here's why:

The player's role in starsector is about managing fleet logistics, navigating the campaign map, and fighting.

It doesn't make sense to have them invest skills in things they, the player, don't personally do. Things that have no more gameplay depth than clicking a button to make a task happen.

The player doesn't actually salvage. They click a button and their little spacemen go salvage.

The player doesn't actually survey. They click a button and their little spacemen do a survey.

So why is it a player skill at all?
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Techhead

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Re: Surveying Skill Enhancement
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2017, 04:34:37 PM »

Another skillpoint would be fine, but if it were not available, would you rather have nothing or a respec point?
To be honest, if leveling gave respec points, I probably would not use them due to them feeling "Too Awesome To Use", especially if player can only level to about 50 to 60 (for 10 to 20 hypothetical respec points) due to steep XP requirements.

I remember hoarding similar rewards in Diablo 2.  Did not want to "ruin" my primary characters by using those rewards.
If spent respec points didn't count towards your level (so you remained maximum level 40 as long as you had 0 respecs), then I don't think it would feel too painful. Could even work it so that respecing earlier instead of later due after buyers remorse puts you ahead of the game. Earning the XP to hit level 10 a second time is a lot easier than pushing from level 40 to level 41.
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Megas

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Re: Surveying Skill Enhancement
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2017, 06:30:18 PM »

So why is it a player skill at all?
Because Alex mentioned that Surveying as implemented is a stub, placeholder, or something similar until (building) outposts are in.
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Megas

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Re: Surveying Skill Enhancement
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2017, 06:42:08 PM »

@ Techhead:  If I got respec points and plan to spend them, I would not use them to undo mistakes (because I know what my final skills are).  I would spend my early points to milk/min-max early-game skills like Surveying/Salvaging or get various skills for hard-to-find hullmods (e.g., Defensive Systems 3 for Hardened Shields), and after I suck the sector dry, respec those skills away and get the final skills I want.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Surveying Skill Enhancement
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2017, 06:34:02 AM »

So why is it a player skill at all?
Because Alex mentioned that Surveying as implemented is a stub, placeholder, or something similar until (building) outposts are in.

Eh, I'm not satisfied. Is the action the player undertakes to perform the survey ever going to be more than clicking a button? it seems doubtful that there will be an interesting minigame for that, even when outposts are around. Thus it seems better suited to officers or special ships doing it.

It's kinda unfun to have a player skill that merely lets you click a button to earn money.
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Megas

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Re: Surveying Skill Enhancement
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2017, 07:50:29 AM »

If an outpost requires a fully surveyed planet before building is even allowed, then I doubt I want surveying to be an involved minigame.  Surveying is just a means to an end.  I would be fine with Surveying abstracted away to a click if the reward is good enough.  Currently, it is not.  All I get is a check to sell at a Black Market.

My gripe about Surveying and Salvaging is they provide a temporary benefit at the cost of permanent power.  (Salvaging's +10% to loot at 3 seems insignificant.)  Being able to build a market that you can produce, store stuff, or have NPC merchants come to provide a steady income is a permanent benefit.  Getting a bank note for one-time payday that may or may not buy a ship is not.  If I want a pay check, I farm bounties.
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PCCL

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Re: Surveying Skill Enhancement
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2017, 09:14:47 AM »

dude, you don't want anything save combat to be an involved minigame.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Surveying Skill Enhancement
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2017, 09:50:02 AM »

dude, you don't want anything save combat to be an involved minigame.

That's the whole point.

So why make a skill out of a game feature that has no more depth than a binary "yes you can click this button / no you can't click this button", and never will? It's boring. Especially when it comes at the price of permanent power, as Megas points out.

It really would be so much better if you had disposable officers and ships govern these abilities, rather than permanent, locked-in skills.

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