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Author Topic: Using frigates in large battles  (Read 6227 times)

Igncom1

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Using frigates in large battles
« on: June 17, 2017, 10:40:56 AM »

So I've done a lot of battles in this game now but I am struggling to find a real use for frigates in the larger fleet battles.

Carriers are so so so dominant in the current game and with ships like cruisers packing the kind of fire-power and range to pick most frigates off in a single attack I am struggling to use frigates in roles other then pursuit auto-resolve.

Even destroyers occasionally suffer under the weapon yields that most battle utilize with my current fleets enforcers, armed with four flak cannons still being unable to withstand Khopesh bomber runs for very long.

So, what do I do with my frigates? I like them and they have cool load outs but I can't really use them without expecting them to die at any and every moment.
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TJJ

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Re: Using frigates in large battles
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2017, 10:45:41 AM »

Wait until fighters get *rebalanced. :) (*heavily nerfed)
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Megas

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Re: Using frigates in large battles
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2017, 10:50:41 AM »

I do what you do.  By the end of the game, I retire most frigates and destroyers and stick with mostly capitals and cruisers.  Keep a few frigates to auto-resolve pursuit and fight the occasional small idiot that small ships can deal with.  That said, Hyperion and Afflictor are special units that can assassinate key ships a bit cheaply.
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Igncom1

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Re: Using frigates in large battles
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2017, 10:51:03 AM »

Wait until fighters get *rebalanced. :) (*heavily nerfed)

Ha, probably.

I'd be of with them just being easier to kill with flak and the AI being less petrified of them whenever they are around.

Their actual effect when left alone is great, the cost of ignoring them should be devastating as it currently is. Leave no battleship unescorted I say.
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Igncom1

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Re: Using frigates in large battles
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2017, 10:57:19 AM »

I do what you do.  By the end of the game, I retire most frigates and destroyers and stick with mostly capitals and cruisers.  Keep a few frigates to auto-resolve pursuit and fight the occasional small idiot that small ships can deal with.  That said, Hyperion and Afflictor are special units that can assassinate key ships a bit cheaply.

I've been holding onto the destroyers as escorts for the carriers, filling them mostly with flak and as many flux upgrades as they'll fit.

But yeah, when the carrier decides that it wants to face tank the enemy fleet, the destroyers are the first to feel the heat. Good thing the enemy are so afraid of the carriers fighters, otherwise I would be losing destroyers on the regular.
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TaLaR

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Re: Using frigates in large battles
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2017, 11:54:29 AM »

I'd be of with them just being easier to kill with flak and the AI being less petrified of them whenever they are around.
Did you actually try to attack Carrier using a Frigate (not phase or Hyperion)?
Specifically, sim Condor with 2 Talons makes a good example. If you don't 100% concentrate on countering fighters you will be dead very soon. AI is correct to be afraid of fighters.

Overall game mechanics do pretty much everything to make late game frigates not viable. AI is not good at piloting ones that have the potential (Afflictor and Hyperion), and the rest don't justify using up a precious officer slot.
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Igncom1

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Re: Using frigates in large battles
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2017, 11:59:25 AM »

I'd be of with them just being easier to kill with flak and the AI being less petrified of them whenever they are around.
Did you actually try to attack Carrier using a Frigate (not phase or Hyperion)?
Specifically, sim Condor with 2 Talons makes a good example. If you don't 100% concentrate on countering fighters you will be dead very soon. AI is correct to be afraid of fighters.

Overall game mechanics do pretty much everything to make late game frigates not viable. AI is not good at piloting ones that have the potential (Afflictor and Hyperion), and the rest don't justify using up a precious officer slot.

That's true about the fighters being effective enough that fearing them is a reasonable reaction.

But when your heavily armoured cruisers are getting jammed by talon flights when they should be focusing on the carrier it can become a little frustrating. More then once I have wanted to shout at my captains to do their jobs rather then fighting the same unit of talons for 10 mins.
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TaLaR

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Re: Using frigates in large battles
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2017, 12:12:50 PM »

I'd be of with them just being easier to kill with flak and the AI being less petrified of them whenever they are around.
Did you actually try to attack Carrier using a Frigate (not phase or Hyperion)?
Specifically, sim Condor with 2 Talons makes a good example. If you don't 100% concentrate on countering fighters you will be dead very soon. AI is correct to be afraid of fighters.

Overall game mechanics do pretty much everything to make late game frigates not viable. AI is not good at piloting ones that have the potential (Afflictor and Hyperion), and the rest don't justify using up a precious officer slot.

That's true about the fighters being effective enough that fearing them is a reasonable reaction.

But when your heavily armoured cruisers are getting jammed by talon flights when they should be focusing on the carrier it can become a little frustrating. More then once I have wanted to shout at my captains to do their jobs rather then fighting the same unit of talons for 10 mins.

The opposite is also an issue. Ships are too eager to let Warthogs close the distance (and get wrecked by them consequently), instead of kite-killing them.
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Igncom1

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Re: Using frigates in large battles
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2017, 12:27:51 PM »

I'd be of with them just being easier to kill with flak and the AI being less petrified of them whenever they are around.
Did you actually try to attack Carrier using a Frigate (not phase or Hyperion)?
Specifically, sim Condor with 2 Talons makes a good example. If you don't 100% concentrate on countering fighters you will be dead very soon. AI is correct to be afraid of fighters.

Overall game mechanics do pretty much everything to make late game frigates not viable. AI is not good at piloting ones that have the potential (Afflictor and Hyperion), and the rest don't justify using up a precious officer slot.

That's true about the fighters being effective enough that fearing them is a reasonable reaction.

But when your heavily armoured cruisers are getting jammed by talon flights when they should be focusing on the carrier it can become a little frustrating. More then once I have wanted to shout at my captains to do their jobs rather then fighting the same unit of talons for 10 mins.

The opposite is also an issue. Ships are too eager to let Warthogs close the distance (and get wrecked by them consequently), instead of kite-killing them.

I also agree with that issue.

Makes me wish the fighters and bombers had no armour so you could cut them down easier, but I'm no balancer so I dunno.
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Zibywan

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Re: Using frigates in large battles
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2017, 07:28:32 AM »

I like to keep 4-7 "hunter" Lashers with safety overrides in my fleet even into the end game. It's a great expendable cloud of death you can hurl at things that like to skitter away, and you can use it to give yourself breathing room if you need to retreat.

In a good sized group (4-7) a pack of frigates that's receiving good, strategic, and frequent orders can be used to hunt down a carrier, break up a clustered enemy fleet, and move the battle to places you want it to be. It can be a bit demanding to keep an eye on them and make sure they don't run out of CR or start getting picked off, but it's worth it if you're okay with spending lots of command points and/or a few calculated losses.

If you're a power monger who believes in perfection, you could swap out the Lashers for Tempests, but I like my ships expendable.

You can also call in a frigate ball if you see an allied ship that needs help, but no one fast enough nearby to give them support. I'm usually much happier losing 2-3 Lashers, Brawlers, or Ceberi (Cerberuses, Cerberus'?) than I am with losing a Heron, Aurora, Legion, or any other important ship in my fleet. They usually make it in time to save a ship that's gone off chasing wolves and become outnumbered or trapped.

As an aside, can we make "off chasing wolves" a SS term that we all accept to mean "Making terrible decisions that get you and your allies killed?"


Frigates are great as late game reinforcements, and I feel like they have a place in large end game fleets as both chasers in pursuit scenarios and as mobile reinforcement if a battle is starting to go pear-shaped. For those reasons I keep on using frigates, even when I have several capital sized ships in my fleet.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Using frigates in large battles
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2017, 09:30:29 AM »

Some specialist frigates still do extremely well. A Maximum speed hound can act as a missile soak, Omens are fantastic in packs because they provide incredible PD and EMP coverage, Salamander/Harpoon kites need minimal OP to perform so there's room for ECM equipment, etc.
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Morbo513

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Re: Using frigates in large battles
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2017, 10:30:52 AM »

On fighters, I find it kinda ridiculous that they can stand up to more than a couple hits from most weapons with or without a shield - beyond specialist wings anyway. If it were up to me, fighters would be quite different. They'd have extremely low health, with the caveat of hits sometimes missing, and low damage output except against other fighters where their damage would be "normal". In other words, they shouldn't be worrisome to anything heavier than a frigate, and token point defences should be able to deal with them handily. Rather, the main purpose of fighters IMO, should be escorting/screening for bombers against other fighters and (sub-)capital point defences. The bombers would do full damage to "normal" ships.

As for frigates, they're what make up at least 30% of my fleet, usually because I'm flying them. I like to utilise them like cavalry - pushing down the enemies' flanks, mobbing isolated ships, picking off enemy frigates within the enemy formation and cutting off their retreat. They're also essential for dealing with pursuits, I rarely auto-resolve. With the right loadouts they can also punch well above their weight in the player or officers' hands, meaning decreased supply consumption, and typically they're cheap and relatively expendable.
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xenoargh

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Re: Using frigates in large battles
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2017, 11:28:18 AM »

I use Frigates and Destroyers in end-game.  The important things to bear in mind are that they must have Captains and not all Frigates are useful for later battles.  But the Wolf and the Tempest can contribute even in the end-game.
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Schwartz

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Re: Using frigates in large battles
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2017, 04:50:08 AM »

The fighter balance pendulum just swung around to the other end right now, don't expect them to be like this forever.

I still use frigates almost every step of the way. Midgame it might be Vigilances, Wolves and Centurions, my lategame fleet will usually have at least a pair of Tempests and an Afflictor. They seem to be doing just fine and I seldom lose one. Certain jobs fighters just can't handle. They are very fast, but the carrier is generally slow to catch up, unless the path is clear and a Heron is doing the chasing. Frigates stay fast. Re: Afflictor AI sucks... put an aggressive officer on it and you may be surprised.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 04:51:43 AM by Schwartz »
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Althaea

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Re: Using frigates in large battles
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2017, 07:24:08 AM »

Certain jobs fighters just can't handle. They are very fast, but the carrier is generally slow to catch up, unless the path is clear and a Heron is doing the chasing. Frigates stay fast. Re: Afflictor AI sucks... put an aggressive officer on it and you may be surprised.

Note that this is theoretically what you have Thunders for, who have twice the normal flight range. It's not enough to cover an entire battle-map, but it's still quite huge.

Of course, as a tradeoff, Thunders don't really excel at any given task.
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