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Author Topic: Missile autoforge should NOT be limited.  (Read 2673 times)
Megas
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« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2017, 08:59:31 AM »

Then the ideal strategy  would be to use all your missiles to blow some targets up quickly, and then hide at the edges of the map to recharge them safely. That seems pretty boring.
Come to think of it, I hide much more now for general fighting just to avoid getting swarmed by the otherwise cowardly AI that is faster than my ships.  Hide at the boundary, slowly creep ahead, run back to boundary as soon as I see a ship (because when I see one, all of it friends are coming).  Maybe pick off one if I am lucky.  Repeat until they are out of gas.  Beats having my slow ship take tons of damage or dying.  Even when I have a better fleet, deploy all might cost too much, but deploying enough just gets ships killed unless I outcheese the AI.
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Wapno
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« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2017, 10:51:06 AM »

I'll loudly vote against any idea of removing the Missile Autoforge. Replacing it with Fast Missile Racks would hurt it and would make it just an oversized Vigilance.
That is the idea, and it would only hurt if Gryphon's defenses were not improved to compensate.  Oversized Vigilance (in terms of primarily being is missileship plus enough guns and defenses to be a competent attacker) like classic Aurora would be nice, especially since there are currently no ships suitable for large dumb-fire missiles like Hammer Barrage and Cyclone Reaper.  Gryphon is too fragile.  Apogee and Conquest have awkward mounts for dumb-fire missiles, Astral is better off focusing on fighters, and Brilliant is unplayable without mods.  A brawling ship with large missile mount similar to classic Aurora would be so nice.  Gryphon could be redesigned a bit to fill the void left behind after classic Aurora changed to what it is today.

Gryphon can make do with two Light Needlers, Heavy Mauler, and various missiles.  It is low OP and poor flux stats that kill it as a brawler.

If Gryphon stays as is, then more missiles, wherever they come from, would be nice.  Currently, Gryphon can have up to four times normal missile capacity, and unless it uses Locusts, it can blow through them all quickly.  Well, it could try to brawl up-close with Cyclone Reaper like Aurora used to, but Reapers are weaker than before (arming delay, dud after flameout, maybe less hp without perks) and Gryphon will die due to poor defenses.

If more missiles is too risky, then I would to see Gryphon buffed enough to play like classic Aurora.
But I ask, why insist on taking away what makes this ship special? I think we have enough brawler cruisers in the game - at least enough that there's really no need to remodel a unique specimen into yet another mundane brawler, killing its unique ability in the process.

I say fix, don't remove!

Then the ideal strategy  would be to use all your missiles to blow some targets up quickly, and then hide at the edges of the map to recharge them safely. That seems pretty boring.
Honestly, I thought the same before I tried it, but it's not that simple. Using missiles sparingly and honestly (wear down shields with squalls/sabots, throw harpoons/torpedoes at overloaded ships etc.) turns out to be far more effective than spamming all of your arsenal at one ship and then abusing the Autoforge. At best you'll blow up a frigate or a destroyer and then be stuck waiting for the resupply. Simply because most of those missles you throw will be stopped by PD if you're not smart about it. Seriously, one hegemony enforcer managed to stop all of my squalls and harpoons with its flak cannons when I tried 1v1'ning it. It took no damage... and later got eaten by my Odyssey.

But really, even if you insist on using a boring tactic, then you should have every right in the world to use it. That's my opinion. Besides, there are already some boring yet effective tactics in the game. The closest to what you've described that comes to my head is get a bunch of Afflictors, load them up with torpedoes and Expanded Missile Racks, blow up some targets, retreat, rinse and repeat until they have too little CR to fight. That can be potentially less costly and it's more devastating than having your 20 deployment points sit idle at the edge of the map, waiting to restock its missiles.
Come to think of it, I hide much more now for general fighting just to avoid getting swarmed by the otherwise cowardly AI that is faster than my ships.  Hide at the boundary, slowly creep ahead, run back to boundary as soon as I see a ship (because when I see one, all of it friends are coming).  Maybe pick off one if I am lucky.  Repeat until they are out of gas.  Beats having my slow ship take tons of damage or dying.  Even when I have a better fleet, deploy all might cost too much, but deploying enough just gets ships killed unless I outcheese the AI.
Out of curiosity, what are you fighting? I might be wrong, but it sounds like you're not using enough escorts, especially frigates. I always have my ships assault a control point and I rarely have a situation when they get flanked and overwhelmed, even though I often use the slowest ships in the game. Escorts for large ships are a must in larger battles. Wolves, Brawlers and Tempests are my ships of choice for escorting and distraction - the former two are dirt cheap, so I don't feel bad even if I lose them, the latter has a bonus of a drone that's often paralyzing whatever's attacking my cap-ships, exposing them for heavy artillery.
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Megas
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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2017, 11:39:39 AM »

Quote
But I ask, why insist on taking away what makes this ship special? I think we have enough brawler cruisers in the game - at least enough that there's really no need to remodel a unique specimen into yet another mundane brawler, killing its unique ability in the process.
In case of Gryphon, if it cannot brawl, then the best it can do is spam long range homing missiles from the back-line like Harpoons and Squalls.  It cannot use shorter ranged stuff like torpedoes without exposing itself.  If I let the AI pilot it, it tends to be the first to die, or at least die more than other cruisers, and it died enough that I abandoned it.

I do not like to pilot the Gryphon because carriers are better or more reliable missileships.  What are fighters but homing missiles - that can shoot missiles - by another name?

The only thing special about Gryphon is it can have up to double the ammo.  That is not very special, especially if the Gryphon dies before it can use the ammo.

Gryphon could be better.  More missiles is a fix, but so is redesigning it into something a little different, maybe more sturdy so it can use any missile effectively, not just fire-and-forget long range stuff that lets Gryphon attack while hiding behind something else.

Quote
Honestly, I thought the same before I tried it, but it's not that simple. Using missiles sparingly and honestly (wear down shields with squalls/sabots, throw harpoons/torpedoes at overloaded ships etc.) turns out to be far more effective than spamming all of your arsenal at one ship and then abusing the Autoforge. At best you'll blow up a frigate or a destroyer and then be stuck waiting for the resupply. Simply because most of those missles you throw will be stopped by PD if you're not smart about it. Seriously, one hegemony enforcer managed to stop all of my squalls and harpoons with its flak cannons when I tried 1v1'ning it. It took no damage... and later got eaten by my Odyssey.
If waiting is the only drawback, it is not a drawback at all (aside from annoying an impatient player).  Enemies avoid the corner, and the player can wait there in peace to recharge resources that take a long time.  (I did this before with hull regeneration.)  If I had unlimited nanoforge charges, I would alpha strike things more.  Aside from impatience, why use finesse when I can overwhelm the enemy with a quick, unblockable, and renewable attack?  May not be effective in a fleet, but it would be great for soloing fleets and cheesing the AI.

Quote
Out of curiosity, what are you fighting? I might be wrong, but it sounds like you're not using enough escorts, especially frigates. I always have my ships assault a control point and I rarely have a situation when they get flanked and overwhelmed, even though I often use the slowest ships in the game. Escorts for large ships are a must in larger battles. Wolves, Brawlers and Tempests are my ships of choice for escorting and distraction - the former two are dirt cheap, so I don't feel bad even if I lose them, the latter has a bonus of a drone that's often paralyzing whatever's attacking my cap-ships, exposing them for heavy artillery.
Battles too small to deploy my fleet but too large for a few small ships to deal with.  If I deploy my fleet, I win but burn too many resources.  If I deploy a small force, I tend to take unacceptable losses.  For times like these, I may try to solo the fight with one large ship.

If I bring extra frigates and destroyers, I may spend more on maintenance, but more importantly, I may not be able to get full choice of ships to recover after a big fight.  (You will be offered more ships than your fleet can take.)
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Wapno
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« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2017, 03:45:29 AM »

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But I ask, why insist on taking away what makes this ship special? I think we have enough brawler cruisers in the game - at least enough that there's really no need to remodel a unique specimen into yet another mundane brawler, killing its unique ability in the process.
In case of Gryphon, if it cannot brawl, then the best it can do is spam long range homing missiles from the back-line like Harpoons and Squalls.  It cannot use shorter ranged stuff like torpedoes without exposing itself.  If I let the AI pilot it, it tends to be the first to die, or at least die more than other cruisers, and it died enough that I abandoned it.
Well, I think that depends - from my experience, it can very well get into torpedo range without getting into too much trouble. You just have to be careful about it. AI-controled Gryphon seems to work best when assigned to escort a relatively powerful tank, so it won't take too much fire by itself.
I do not like to pilot the Gryphon because carriers are better or more reliable missileships.  What are fighters but homing missiles - that can shoot missiles - by another name?

The only thing special about Gryphon is it can have up to double the ammo.  That is not very special, especially if the Gryphon dies before it can use the ammo.

Gryphon could be better.  More missiles is a fix, but so is redesigning it into something a little different, maybe more sturdy so it can use any missile effectively, not just fire-and-forget long range stuff that lets Gryphon attack while hiding behind something else.
And that's one of the very reasons why I think Missile Autoforge should be unlimited and on a cooldown. Unlimited missiles are already in the game, in form of fighters - it won't hurt to restore this functionality to a cruiser that isn't going to compete with fighters anyway.

Indeed, large missile capacity isn't all that special, but it's original ability to restore missiles WAS special. That's why I made this topic, to vote for its restoration. I stand by my opinion that remodeling the Gryphon to just another brawler is a bad idea and it would butcher its uniqueness. It's one of those rare ships that can do what any other mundane ship in the game cannot do - rarities sought after, like Astral, Afflictor, Hyperion etc. Each of those ships fails if used for general fighting like a standard ship, but have an interesting gimmick that makes you want have it, if only for the sake of owning it, even if you're going to just store it.

What you're proposing would just make me look at Gryphon and think "huh, just another gunboat, but with more missiles" and ignore it, going for the Apogee, Dominator, or the Aurora, which the Gryphon will never outperform in a straight face-to-face combat.

Quote
Honestly, I thought the same before I tried it, but it's not that simple. Using missiles sparingly and honestly (wear down shields with squalls/sabots, throw harpoons/torpedoes at overloaded ships etc.) turns out to be far more effective than spamming all of your arsenal at one ship and then abusing the Autoforge. At best you'll blow up a frigate or a destroyer and then be stuck waiting for the resupply. Simply because most of those missles you throw will be stopped by PD if you're not smart about it. Seriously, one hegemony enforcer managed to stop all of my squalls and harpoons with its flak cannons when I tried 1v1'ning it. It took no damage... and later got eaten by my Odyssey.
If waiting is the only drawback, it is not a drawback at all (aside from annoying an impatient player).  Enemies avoid the corner, and the player can wait there in peace to recharge resources that take a long time.  (I did this before with hull regeneration.)  If I had unlimited nanoforge charges, I would alpha strike things more.  Aside from impatience, why use finesse when I can overwhelm the enemy with a quick, unblockable, and renewable attack?  May not be effective in a fleet, but it would be great for soloing fleets and cheesing the AI.
You won't be able to solo fleets in this, trust me. For one thing, it's too slow, even with unstable injector, and if you won't get eaten by fighters, you will be by DDs that will catch up with you. Besides, as I've said, spamming those missiles isn't all that deadly. Most of those harpoons you throw will just be knocked down with PD, and if you don't wear the shields down with Squalls or Sabots, they will just be soaked. Hey, see for yourself - you can edit the system by editing ship_systems.csv in Starsector\starsector-core\data\shipsystems.

By itself, even with recharging nanoforge, Gryphon is not that much of a threat, at best it can tear apart a frigate. But hey, show me a cruiser that can't already do that, without missiles. Still, if you insist on abusing the nanoforge to alpha strike things... then you should have a right to do so. Seriously, boring yet effective cheesing tactics are already possible in the game, and just the fact that they are possible should not be a basis for disarming an interesting ship.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 08:31:49 AM by Wapno » Logged
Megas
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« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2017, 06:14:44 AM »

You won't be able to solo fleets in this, trust me. For one thing, it's too slow, even with unstable injector, and if you won't get eaten by fighters, you will be by DDs that will catch up with you. Besides, as I've said, spamming those missiles isn't all that deadly. Most of those harpoons you throw will just be knocked down with PD, and if you don't wear the shields down with Squalls or Sabots, they will just be soaked. Hey, see for yourself - you can edit the system by editing ship_systems.csv in Starsector\starsector-core\data\shipsystems.

By itself, even with recharging nanoforge, Gryphon is not that much of a threat, at best it can tear apart a frigate. But hey, show show me a cruiser that can't already do that, without missiles. Still, if you insist on abusing the nanoforge to alpha strike things... then you should have a right to do so. Seriously, boring yet effective cheesing tactics are already possible in the game, and just the fact that they are possible should not be a basis for disarming an interesting ship.
I tried this myself.  While it cannot solo everything, it is effective against enough that it can be problematic.  MIRVs and perhaps other missiles will overwhelm smaller ships, and from long range.  Ships cannot catch up to my ship if I do not start in the middle in the first place.  I can go straight to the edges without meeting anything.  Then I slowly creep toward the middle a bit until I find a ship, then run away.  Gryphon with Unstable Injector is fast to do this.  Along the way, I pick an easy target, destroy it with missile spam, go back to boundary, watch the other enemies withdraw and disappear, and I can wait as long as I want without peak performance ticking down because no enemies are visible.

A Gryphon with unlimited autoforge can spam missiles willy nilly and kill small ships without risk.  It may have trouble against bigger ships, but that is okay.  It can solve a problem (overwhelm small ships with missile spam without risk) relatively efficiently.

The thing about boring and effective is with a three minute recharge delay for unlimited charges, it is encouraged.  This is a reason why hull regeneration was removed.  It enabled player to slug it out without regard to damage, win, then hide until hull regenerated enough and repeat.  Hull regeneration was effectively unlimited hull, and it enabled ships to solo fleets they otherwise could not.
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Wapno
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« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2017, 08:31:13 AM »

You won't be able to solo fleets in this, trust me. For one thing, it's too slow, even with unstable injector, and if you won't get eaten by fighters, you will be by DDs that will catch up with you. Besides, as I've said, spamming those missiles isn't all that deadly. Most of those harpoons you throw will just be knocked down with PD, and if you don't wear the shields down with Squalls or Sabots, they will just be soaked. Hey, see for yourself - you can edit the system by editing ship_systems.csv in Starsector\starsector-core\data\shipsystems.

By itself, even with recharging nanoforge, Gryphon is not that much of a threat, at best it can tear apart a frigate. But hey, show me a cruiser that can't already do that, without missiles. Still, if you insist on abusing the nanoforge to alpha strike things... then you should have a right to do so. Seriously, boring yet effective cheesing tactics are already possible in the game, and just the fact that they are possible should not be a basis for disarming an interesting ship.
I tried this myself.  While it cannot solo everything, it is effective against enough that it can be problematic.  MIRVs and perhaps other missiles will overwhelm smaller ships, and from long range.  Ships cannot catch up to my ship if I do not start in the middle in the first place.  I can go straight to the edges without meeting anything.  Then I slowly creep toward the middle a bit until I find a ship, then run away.  Gryphon with Unstable Injector is fast to do this.  Along the way, I pick an easy target, destroy it with missile spam, go back to boundary, watch the other enemies withdraw and disappear, and I can wait as long as I want without peak performance ticking down because no enemies are visible.

A Gryphon with unlimited autoforge can spam missiles willy nilly and kill small ships without risk.  It may have trouble against bigger ships, but that is okay.  It can solve a problem (overwhelm small ships with missile spam without risk) relatively efficiently.

The thing about boring and effective is with a three minute recharge delay for unlimited charges, it is encouraged.  This is a reason why hull regeneration was removed.  It enabled player to slug it out without regard to damage, win, then hide until hull regenerated enough and repeat.  Hull regeneration was effectively unlimited hull, and it enabled ships to solo fleets they otherwise could not.
Interesting. I've just tested and it does happen. Why would the AI stop being aggressive when you're near the edges/corners is beyond me. But I'll tell you, it all seems to be more of a problem with the AI, not with the Gryphon. Especially since, from what I can see (and from what you've actually said in one of your earlier posts), it can be exploited with other ships. And unlike Gryphon, they don't have to wait in for their ammo to recharge. One ship that seems a good choice for this is Aurora, which is both fast and has overwhelming frontal firepower.

And even if that point about cheesing the AI is valid, then it's nothing that a proper nerf of the ship cannot solve, to compensate for the unlimited autoforge. The first thing that comes to my mind is reducing the speed, so it cannot employ that tactic unless you got a backup. A slow, fragile source of firepower that must be protected by escorts is what this ship should've been in the first place.

Last thing, I don't think autoforge can be compared to hull regeneration. Health regen is not the same as ammo regen. Nevertheless, if that's the main issue, then I'd be fine with it, but that's just my opinion.

Honestly, the idea of a ship that has a relatively unlimited supply of otherwise limited ammunition, under condition that it must rely on that trait and can plausibly fight with missiles as the main weapon is just too good to pass on. I'd be glad with this even if Gryphon in return got nerfed to the point of being weak. For me, this ship with unlimited autoforge is the only non-fighter vessel in the game to have it practical to install Atropos torpedoes on, and I loved those ever since I've seen them in the game.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 08:54:20 AM by Wapno » Logged
Megas
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« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2017, 10:11:45 AM »

Probably because before, AI kind of avoided the corner, but still tried to get into weapons range.  Being able to fight at the corner removes one of Onslaught's weaknesses, getting flanked or attacked from the rear because ships cannot fly past the boundaries.  Other ships benefitted, but not as much as Onslaught.  Onslaught during 0.7x was so powerful that it could kill everything without taking hull damage, and while it did not need the corner, exploiting it removed its only weakness.  Fighters ignored boundaries, but an Onslaught with mostly PD can stop all fighters and missiles, while still having enough firepower elsewhere to kill everything.

Rechargeable autoforge and hull regeneration have one thing in common:  You can hide in the corner until all of your renewable resources (missiles, hull, whatever) recharge, and as long as peak performance does not tick down (and it will not because enemies avoid the boundaries far enough away if you stay there) it is effectively free.  It is like calling a time-out, and play is effectively suspended until you rest and recover.  While enemy could have similar resources, the player dictates combat by exploiting the AI.
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Wyvern
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« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2017, 10:19:25 AM »

Why not make the autoforge's cooldown only tick down while the ship is under CR pressure?  Poof, no incentive to go hide and wait on reload timers.
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Megas
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« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2017, 10:54:23 AM »

Why not make the autoforge's cooldown only tick down while the ship is under CR pressure?  Poof, no incentive to go hide and wait on reload timers.
In that case, it should be done as for carriers.  Fighter wings that are completely wiped out continue to drain peak performance or CR regardless of enemy presence until at least one fighter is restored.  Applied to a rechargeable system, the timer continues to tick until a charge is restored.
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Wyvern
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« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2017, 11:09:00 AM »

Why not make the autoforge's cooldown only tick down while the ship is under CR pressure?  Poof, no incentive to go hide and wait on reload timers.
In that case, it should be done as for carriers.  Fighter wings that are completely wiped out continue to drain peak performance or CR regardless of enemy presence until at least one fighter is restored.  Applied to a rechargeable system, the timer continues to tick until a charge is restored.
I guess having it drain CR time until the system's available for use again would work too.
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Wapno
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« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2017, 11:24:26 AM »

Why not make the autoforge's cooldown only tick down while the ship is under CR pressure?  Poof, no incentive to go hide and wait on reload timers.
In that case, it should be done as for carriers.  Fighter wings that are completely wiped out continue to drain peak performance or CR regardless of enemy presence until at least one fighter is restored.  Applied to a rechargeable system, the timer continues to tick until a charge is restored.
I guess having it drain CR time until the system's available for use again would work too.
These are good ideas imo! I support that.

I guess it even makes sense lore-wise. While the system is recharging for another shot, the crew is busy loading the system with material for next ammo replication, so the ship is under stress as if it was in combat, hence peak performance/CR ticking down even if there are no enemies around.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 12:41:17 PM by Wapno » Logged
borgrel
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« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2017, 01:55:40 PM »

I cant say much about the gryphon, i dont like it, the med missile ports are useless because of their direction: basically the only missiles u can put in there is pilums or harpoons
a single large missile hardpoint on its own, especially since it cant coordinate properly with the med missiles is rather pointless unless the only thing u are attacking are destroyers and lower and in that case a gryphon's defences are tooo low to withstand anyway.

now with regards to the archer,

imo the voidspead is the best missile choice for an archer and its almost impossible to use all missiles before ppt runs out
in the tourny on archers with hardened subs modded in a way to make the units fire sabots at max speed the barely ran out  of missiles before end of ppt

one recharge does not sound like a lot but it is surprisingly effective
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Igncom1
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« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2017, 02:04:35 PM »

I cant say much about the gryphon, i dont like it, the med missile ports are useless because of their direction: basically the only missiles u can put in there is pilums or harpoons

Have you never used a fleet with 10+ pilums before?

It's a tentacle of death and sweeps across enemy fleet, slowly and surly ripping them to shreds.

Mass pilums stack amazingly well with carriers, especially with bombers like the Piranha who drops dozens of bombs each or with fighters that have flares. No amount of PD can deal with it short of a point defence oriented onslaught.
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Wapno
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« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2017, 09:55:49 AM »

Now I only wonder if it's possible to have the devs consider this change.
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evil713
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« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2017, 07:07:04 AM »

What if, and I'm just saying what if, Missile AutoForge was turned into a weapon similar to the Onslaught thermal blasters, but still used the special activation key? Essentially a Macross missile Massacre style attack with a long cool down say 45 seconds. A custom missile perhaps.

In addition give it a custom hull mod "Large Extended Missile Racks" granting 300% increase to missile ammo and blocking the regular extended missile rack mod.
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