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[Wapno]

I was hesitant to post this, much because it seems to be a somewhat controversial topic, but I do have to bring this up. It's bothering me.

As we know, the Gryphon missile cruiser and its missile autoforge went through several changes during development. I didn't get to see what was going on, because at the time of Gryphon's release, I have put playing Starsector on a hiatus, but from what I understand, it was insanely overpowered. One .gif I've seen on the web had it spam reapers at an onslaught and a couple of dominators and utterly massacre them. Though this was already after it was getting gradually nerfed.

It's understandable that this HAD to be nerfed. However, I think Alex went way overboard with nerfing this thing. It was after the final nerf that I got to try out the Gryphon... at it was a dissapointment. An utter dissapointment, possibly the biggest one I've seen in this game.

In my opinion, the devs chose the worst possible solution to nerf this system. As of now, the Missile Autoforge is pretty much just a glorified way of saying "ship has double missile capacity". Actually... no, it doesn't, because if you have any missiles unused, it will replenish that much less missiles.

Limit is the worst solution when it comes to balance, in my opinion. And yes, when you think about it, battles in general are not unlimited either, and chances are Gryphon has enough missile capacity that it more often than not will last till the end of the battle than run out of its missiles, but still, it's a big psychological effect to have a limit. Battles seem like they can last forever, missiles don't.

And yes, I know balance is not the only reason. I'll allow myself to quote Alex himself and his opinion on the subject from a different thread:

Finally, primarily-missile-based ships like the Gryphon are the exception rather than the rule. Missiles aren't meant to be general-purpose weaponry like energy or ballistics, and I don't want to move in that direction - I think that'd water them down in the long run.

I understand. But still, I think that, how he himself put it, the fact that Gryphon is an exception is a valid reason why its ability to replenish missiles without limits should be restored. Yes, missiles aren't meant to be general-purpose weaponry, but it won't be a disaster if there's one ship in the game that CAN use them this way. It might be its gimmick. It's only balancing of one ship, not an entire weapons category.

But if you still cringe at the thought of a ship that can spam missiles and bury opponents under a hail of torpedoes and sabots, allow me to remind you about two things:

1) There are fighters and bombers. These are unlimited source of missiles, and it's already in the game.
2) There are other ways of balancing the system. And they are definitely not as disruptive as killing it altogether (and imo, limiting it to only one, non-regenerating charge is killing it).

Here are some of my ideas how it could be balanced instead:
-Replenishing missiles is not instantaneous and instead takes several seconds to finish - essentially prevents spamming torpedoes ad nauseum.
-Replenishing missiles is not instantaneous and also acts like venting - same as the above, but the ship cannot raise shields or use weapons while the system is working.
-The system builds up charges, like the phase skimmer does, preferably more slowly and with less charge capacity - still a limit, but at least better than leaving it at ONE charge and having you never get any more.
-All of the missiles are on cooldown right after the system finishes its work, as if they were just fired.
-The system can replenish ONLY the missile launcher currently selected. So if you want to recharge all of your missiles, you have to go through every single launcher, possibly spending charges along the way.
-Any combination of the above, possibly while keeping the already existing trait if the system generating immense amounts of flux.

Unlike one nerf the ship had in the past (CR reduction on every use... which was stupid, imo), those changes are directly affecting the ship's combat performance and preventing it from doing things that are... silly. Definitely less frustrating than having a hard limit. Honestly, I've captured several Gryphons, I've tried to use one as my flagship, then as an addition to my fleet, but in the end it's just sitting in my storage, because I just can't bother with it in current state - it's boring and underwhelming, at least for my taste. You replenish your missiles once, and then you're not even left with a flare launcher, and in case you run out of missiles after that, then the ship becomes a cruiser-sized frigate, in terms of firepower.

Tell me guys what you think. And if you think that I'm talking absolute nonsense, then please at least tell me if I can edit the game files to give the ship system a regenerating charge, like that of a phase skimmer.

[Megas]

That pic with Gryphon spamming Reapers was back in a time when Reapers had no arming delay, smalls had no reload delay, and Missile Specialization was much more powerful.  Gryphon would have lost all of its CR doing that stunt.  It was crazy, but nowhere near as efficient as another ship killing an entire fleet the conventional way.  Also back then, AI was more eager to fight.

The original cost of CR made it too easy to self-destruct the Gryphon if you (or AI) was not careful.

It was not gradually weakened.  It was originally limited by CR, then changed to one charge per fight.  It is okay, but I would have preferred builtin hullmod to make it more simple and less fiddly, if it stays limited.

Given the changes to missiles, I doubt Gryphon could spam torpedoes like it could even if it had its original system back.

In the game, Gryphon is too weak.  It is a destroyer in a cruiser chassis.  Missiles are too unreliable.  Carriers are a better support ship.

Personally, I would not mind seeing the autoforge done away with and Gryphon bulk up and evolve toward what Aurora used to be, except with ballistics instead of energy weapons.  Make Expanded Missile Racks builtin, change the system to Fast Missile Racks, and upgrade Gryphon's stats somewhere between Falcon and Eagle so it can brawl.

[Midnight Kitsune]

Personally, I would not mind seeing the autoforge done away with and Gryphon bulk up and evolve toward what Aurora used to be, except with ballistics instead of energy weapons.  Make Expanded Missile Racks builtin, change the system to Fast Missile Racks, and upgrade Gryphon's stats somewhere between Falcon and Eagle so it can brawl.

Yes, I agree with this. I miss the old Aurora TBH

[Wapno]

It was not gradually weakened.  It was originally limited by CR, then changed to one charge per fight.

Oh, I see. Like I said, I've put the game away during the time when this ship showed up, so I had no idea. Nevertheless, both losing CR per system use and 1 charge per battle limit are obnoxious.

As for the rest of the post, I agree. Low overall effectiveness of this ship is an insult to the injury and it's one of the reasons why balancing of this system should be changed.

However I do not agree with removing the system altogether. While your proposition is reasonable, it goes against one of the cool things in Starsector - ship uniqueness. Making the Gryphon "like Aurora, but with focus on missiles" would be against that, and wouldn't be a good idea imo. Just keep the Missile Autoforge, balance it in a way that does not severely prohibit its use or outright kill it, and just let Gryphon fight with missiles like no other ship in the game can.

[Megas]

Aurora today has little in common with the Aurora of the past aside from appearance and some of the energy turrets.  When Gryphon first came out, it was basically a weaker Aurora (at the time) with worse stats, one less small missile, two awkward side medium missiles, and nanoforge system.  Aurora was probably a better missileship overall than Gryphon, though Aurora was a terrible brawler.  Then Aurora changed to make it less of a missileboat and more of a high-tech line ship.

[Gothars]

Expanded missile racks got more expensive, and since it is basically a must-have, that's a direct nerf to the Gryphon. Making it build-in seems to make sense to me.

[Midnight Kitsune]

Expanded missile racks got more expensive, and since it is basically a must-have, that's a direct nerf to the Gryphon. Making it build-in seems to make sense to me.

As long as the Griphon doesn't lose OP to compensate, I would be fine with that

[Alex_P]

Expanded missile racks got more expensive, and since it is basically a must-have, that's a direct nerf to the Gryphon. Making it build-in seems to make sense to me.

Didn't they also get better, though? I don't remember Racks giving +100% capacity in the past. (IIRC, it was like 75%, so you couldn't use them to double up your one-shot missiles.)

[Ranakastrasz]

Expanded missile racks got more expensive, and since it is basically a must-have, that's a direct nerf to the Gryphon. Making it build-in seems to make sense to me.

Didn't they also get better, though? I don't remember Racks giving +100% capacity in the past. (IIRC, it was like 75%, so you couldn't use them to double up your one-shot missiles.)

Yep, used to be 75%. I really like the new +100%.

[Alex_P]

Yep, used to be 75%. I really like the new +100%.

Yup. Getting 24 Harpoons or Sabots out of a single medium pod is SWEET.

[Megas]

Speaking of unique, Fast Missiles Racks on combat ships are an endangered species.  Currently, the only combat ship with it is Vigilance.  Condor is primarily a carrier, Venture has been redesigned as a civilian mining ship (compared to the respectable combat ship it used to be), and Doom traded Fast Missile Racks for Interdictor Array some time ago.

Gryphon with Fast Missile Racks and a custom hullmod that triples missile capacity (like Paragon's Advanced Targeting Core for shot range) sounds nice.

[Wapno]

Speaking of unique, Fast Missiles Racks on combat ships are an endangered species.  Currently, the only combat ship with it is Vigilance.  Condor is primarily a carrier, Venture has been redesigned as a civilian mining ship (compared to the respectable combat ship it used to be), and Doom traded Fast Missile Racks for Interdictor Array some time ago.

Gryphon with Fast Missile Racks and a custom hullmod that triples missile capacity (like Paragon's Advanced Targeting Core for shot range) sounds nice.

I'll loudly vote against any idea of removing the Missile Autoforge. Replacing it with Fast Missile Racks would hurt it and would make it just an oversized Vigilance.

I mean, no, not even that. Keep in mind, that Vigilance at least has some reasonable firepower for a frigate, thanks to the medium energy slot. The Gryphon has what, a couple of small ballistics and one medium ballistic, aside from its missiles? Once it runs out of the latter, it's stuck with destroyer-sized armament, and horrible flux stats for a cruiser. And sooner or later, especially with Fast Missile Racks, it WILL blow through its missile supply, even with triple capacity. 20 deployment points blown on a temporary missile boat that later becomes a big, weak destroyer at most, and a flying paperweight at worst.

I've tampered with the game files and gave Missile Autoforge an 180 second cooldown, just to see how it works. I'd say that's reasonable. The idea is to give it some use in long engagements. In short fights it doesn't even make any difference, and in longer ones it also won't make any if you mindlessly spam those missiles, but at least it will never become useless until its CR runs out. Having the luxury of not worrying about running out of ammo is awesome.

It appears that there aren't even any changes to the ship stats necessary to make unlimited Missile Autoforge on a cooldown balanced. It has its cons and pros, but it's nowhere near overpowered. I've tried several loadouts and it seems it has to be specialized. It can tear apart low-tech frigates and pose a threat to other cruisers, but by itself it cannot directly kill the latter by itself and it's immediately dead once it's been caught in a brawling range. The enemy PD however seriously limits its firepower - just one dedicated PD Enforcer was enough to stop virtually all of the missiles. Against cap-ships it's mostly useless. Theoretically, you could load it up with Reapers and try striking, but I'd say Afflictors are more efficient at that, and for a fraction of a cost, especially since the Gryphon is too slow to get into a proper firing position to bite with its torpedoes - it can't even corner an Onslaught without distraction.

What do you guys think?

[Megas]

I'll loudly vote against any idea of removing the Missile Autoforge. Replacing it with Fast Missile Racks would hurt it and would make it just an oversized Vigilance.

That is the idea, and it would only hurt if Gryphon's defenses were not improved to compensate.  Oversized Vigilance (in terms of primarily being is missileship plus enough guns and defenses to be a competent attacker) like classic Aurora would be nice, especially since there are currently no ships suitable for large dumb-fire missiles like Hammer Barrage and Cyclone Reaper.  Gryphon is too fragile.  Apogee and Conquest have awkward mounts for dumb-fire missiles, Astral is better off focusing on fighters, and Brilliant is unplayable without mods.  A brawling ship with large missile mount similar to classic Aurora would be so nice.  Gryphon could be redesigned a bit to fill the void left behind after classic Aurora changed to what it is today.

Gryphon can make do with two Light Needlers, Heavy Mauler, and various missiles.  It is low OP and poor flux stats that kill it as a brawler.

If Gryphon stays as is, then more missiles, wherever they come from, would be nice.  Currently, Gryphon can have up to four times normal missile capacity, and unless it uses Locusts, it can blow through them all quickly.  Well, it could try to brawl up-close with Cyclone Reaper like Aurora used to, but Reapers are weaker than before (arming delay, dud after flameout, maybe less hp without perks) and Gryphon will die due to poor defenses.

If more missiles is too risky, then I would to see Gryphon buffed enough to play like classic Aurora.

[Gothars]

It appears that there aren't even any changes to the ship stats necessary to make unlimited Missile Autoforge on a cooldown balanced. It has its cons and pros, but it's nowhere near overpowered.

Then the ideal strategy  would be to use all your missiles to blow some targets up quickly, and then hide at the edges of the map to recharge them safely. That seems pretty boring.

Fast missile racks + more missiles on the other hand seem OP. Wasn't the reason the Gryphon got nerfed in the first place that it could fire a lot of missiles in a short time?

I think the ships is mostly fine, it just need some minor buffs.

[Megas]

It had plenty of OP when it first debut, then lost 15 later.

Gryphon could only fire missiles after a short time because one-shots had no reload delay at the time, but they do now.  Also, that infamous pic caused that Gryphon to go from 100% CR to 0% CR, during the days when a single ship could shoot up an entire fleet the old fashion way for much less CR spent at the cost of resolving combat in about fifteen minutes.  Also during those days, Missile Specialization was much more powerful.

I think the system limited to one per fight was more a safety mechanism.  Do not let unwary players or careless AI break their ship too quickly.  It was a potentially harmful system to use as intended, sort of like old Accelerated Ammo Feeder (because the ships that had that system also had bad flux stats).

Today, if you want to recreate that stunt, grab an Afflictor, use Quantum Disruptor (which was not available during Gryphon's early days) to shut down the target and nuke it.

Fast Missile Racks should not be overpowered.  It only has three charges.  It used to be unlimited until Salamanders got unlimited ammo, then that system got charges soon after to avoid unlimited Salamander (or other unlimited missile) spam.