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Author Topic: Advanced Countermeasures Ideas  (Read 9187 times)

Death_Silence_66

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Re: Advanced Countermeasures Ideas
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2017, 11:13:04 PM »

Since we're spamming ideas:

Level 1: +75 Range on all PD Weapons. Adds Integrated Point Defense AI hull mod

Rationale: Same as OP's, just a flat bonus instead of %. Most dedicated PD weapons are on the low-side of the range spectrum (250-600 range) so a flat bonus is relatively larger for some of the knife-fighting PD like Vulcans, MGs, and PD Lasers. I think you could flag "normal" PD from PD created by IPDAI so that it doesn't become an issue. Plus, this is a level 1 ability so it shouldn't be bonkers. Helps shoot down stuff a bit earlier.

Level 1: +50% target leading, -50% Weapon Recoil for Ballistic PD Weapons
            +100 Range, +25% Damage for Energy PD Weapons

Rationale: Had to split these up a bit but makes PD more effective by being more accurate and/or longer range and more damaging.

Level 1: +25% Damage to Missiles and Fighters

Rationale: It was never a level 3 skill but with a slight reduction, it would make a good level 1.

Level 2: -30% Missile Damage for armor damage calculation Only

Rationale: Again, you're trying to mitigate damage with this skill and without adding reactive armor (which is cool), the straight-forward approach is just reduce missile damage. The caveat being that it's only on paper and while armor is still up. Against hull damage, missiles do full damage. Paired with some other +armor perks, you can really slow down missile damage.

Level 3: Reduces OP cost of PD by 50%. (piloted ship)

Rationale: One of the few "frees up OP" skills, this would make mounting PD much less painful. Again, you'd have to flag "normal" PD so that IPDAI doesn't cause weirdness but you'd also have to define which weapons were PD. The Thumper and Devastator are actually called Assault guns though they act like PD at times. Also, are missile hardpoints that are "anti-fighter" considered PD? As a level 3 skill, I don't think the the effects are too outrageous.
The reduced OP costs for the player ship could be abused. You could take advantage of the reduced OP costs, then switch to another ship and outfit it with the reduced costs. Make it fleetwide to make this a non-issue.
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Megas

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Re: Advanced Countermeasures Ideas
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2017, 05:27:41 AM »

May be useless dead level for officers.

Officers did not give Optimized Assembly from level 10 Ordnance Expert in previous versions, which was the real reason to take Ordnance Expert back in the day.  +20% damage was nice but not a big deal.  The OP discounts were huge, a real game changer.
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FooF

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Re: Advanced Countermeasures Ideas
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2017, 06:48:44 AM »

The reduced OP costs for the player ship could be abused. You could take advantage of the reduced OP costs, then switch to another ship and outfit it with the reduced costs. Make it fleetwide to make this a non-issue.

Fleetwide would be too powerful. Officers would still have access to it as a Level 3 skill. As far as abuse, if you switch a ship that has Level 3 AC to a ship without it, you'd have the same prompt as when you have OP left to spend, except it would be an overage (in red). Ships with overage in OP would either be unable to deploy or suffer reduced CR until the deficit is reconciled.

@ Megas

Yes, Ordnance Expertise in prior versions was arguably the most beneficial level 10 perk. It saved hundreds of OP over the whole fleet. With what I'm proposing, it would be limited to single ships and only affect PD. I don't think that's all that game-changing but it is worthy of a Level 3 skill. On a flagship or an officer, it would be one (of only two) OP-saving skills. For a Dominator, for example, if you covered it in Dual Flak and Vulcans on the side/rear, you'd be saving something like 20 OP. Not insignificant but nothing ridiculous. If anything, it makes Burst PD more palatable for high-tech ships, which have always been something of a tough sell.
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Schwartz

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Re: Advanced Countermeasures Ideas
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2017, 06:49:21 AM »

I'm all for adding some modest PD buffs to Advanced Countermeasures if in turn, the new 50% Kinetic vs. armour resist will be toned down. As it stands, the in-dev skill is quite strong now and shouldn't be enhanced further.

Not sure about OP buffs.. weird to have an officer OP reduction skill. Since we all play on the same scale now more or less, it'd be powerful to put Burst PD all around on a Conquest or Odyssey. Imagine how much more you'd get out of a Dominator with Vulcans.

Energy PD is going to be better in 0.8.1. Range & tracking buffs are fine. OP reduction is not.
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Megas

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Re: Advanced Countermeasures Ideas
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2017, 07:29:45 AM »

If officers get OP reduction, what happens if I remove or replace the officer?  The configuration bar will be red from going over OP, but the configuration will still be there for anyone to use.  OP reduction by design would need to be a fleet-wide bonus, which officers do not grant.

According to patch notes, the only way energy PD that is getting better is less flux cost.  Admittedly, that is a big deal for LR PD laser.  (Flux cost was the main reason I avoid it if I have better options.)  They still will be generally underpowered (though not useless).
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FooF

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Re: Advanced Countermeasures Ideas
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2017, 08:35:00 AM »

If officers get OP reduction, what happens if I remove or replace the officer?  The configuration bar will be red from going over OP, but the configuration will still be there for anyone to use.  OP reduction by design would need to be a fleet-wide bonus, which officers do not grant.

According to patch notes, the only way energy PD that is getting better is less flux cost.  Admittedly, that is a big deal for LR PD laser.  (Flux cost was the main reason I avoid it if I have better options.)  They still will be generally underpowered (though not useless).

I actually addressed it in my follow-up to this:

Quote from: me
As far as abuse, if you switch a ship that has Level 3 AC to a ship without it, you'd have the same prompt as when you have OP left to spend on the refit screen, except it would be an overage (in red). Ships with overage in OP would either be unable to deploy or suffer reduced CR until the deficit is reconciled.

Easiest penalty to force the issue would be to drop the ship to 0% CR until the OP debt is fixed. Perhaps even have a pop-up prompt if any ship in your fleet is over its OP limit. If done at a shipyard/planet, you wouldn't lose anything but if done in the middle of space, it would cripple the ships in question. If you wanted to make it fleetwide, I guess that's a thing but having it more limited seems more appropriate to me. Otherwise it becomes a "must-have." I guess I don't see why an officer couldn't give an OP reduction.
 
I'm not married to the idea (so I won't defend it further) but I don't think it's overwhelmingly powerful if only on individual ships.
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Wyvern

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Re: Advanced Countermeasures Ideas
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2017, 11:08:11 AM »

On the topic of crazy r3 ideas, how about this one:
  • PD weapons can fire (at 1/3 their normal rate) while the piloted ship is overloaded.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

TaLaR

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Re: Advanced Countermeasures Ideas
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2017, 12:25:16 PM »

On the topic of crazy r3 ideas, how about this one:
  • PD weapons can fire (at 1/3 their normal rate) while the piloted ship is overloaded.

How often do you get overloaded? I expect something universally useful at rank 3, not partial band-aid for player mistakes.
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Techhead

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Re: Advanced Countermeasures Ideas
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2017, 11:19:27 PM »

My suggestion for Advanced Countermeasures if you don't have a good thing for it in the design space: Yank it.

There are four other defense-focused skills: Damage Control, Impact Mitigation, Defensive Systems, and Evasive Maneuvers. And a defensive perk in an otherwise offensive skill: +50% weapon hit points in Ordinance Expertise (although it pales next to the similar one in Evasive Maneuvers). Plus four other skills that help survivability: Combat Endurance (the high CR buffs), Helmsmanship (speed), Gunnery Implants (range in general, and accuracy helps PD a bunch), and Power Grid Modulation (capacity and vent-speed).

I think the pile of defensive skills available can maybe stand to be one smaller.
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isaacssv552

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Re: Advanced Countermeasures Ideas
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2017, 12:06:40 AM »

On the topic of crazy r3 ideas, how about this one:
  • PD weapons can fire (at 1/3 their normal rate) while the piloted ship is overloaded.

How often do you get overloaded? I expect something universally useful at rank 3, not partial band-aid for player mistakes.
What about firing while venting? Being able to vent and still shoot down the odd missile would be a nice perk.
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TaLaR

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Re: Advanced Countermeasures Ideas
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2017, 04:35:24 AM »

On the topic of crazy r3 ideas, how about this one:
  • PD weapons can fire (at 1/3 their normal rate) while the piloted ship is overloaded.

How often do you get overloaded? I expect something universally useful at rank 3, not partial band-aid for player mistakes.
What about firing while venting? Being able to vent and still shoot down the odd missile would be a nice perk.

Judging whether missiles are a real threat (given distance to enemies) is also part of choosing right time to vent.
I'd probably pass on that, but only because there are too few points vs amount of skills.
It does sound almost good enough in general and maybe even broken good for some specific designs (IPDAI tac lasers while venting...?).
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isaacssv552

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Re: Advanced Countermeasures Ideas
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2017, 04:59:11 AM »

On the topic of crazy r3 ideas, how about this one:
  • PD weapons can fire (at 1/3 their normal rate) while the piloted ship is overloaded.

How often do you get overloaded? I expect something universally useful at rank 3, not partial band-aid for player mistakes.
What about firing while venting? Being able to vent and still shoot down the odd missile would be a nice perk.

Judging whether missiles are a real threat (given distance to enemies) is also part of choosing right time to vent.
I'd probably pass on that, but only because there are too few points vs amount of skills.
It does sound almost good enough in general and maybe even broken good for some specific designs (IPDAI tac lasers while venting...?).
The benefit of perk would be the ability to vent when missiles would otherwise prevent you. Maybe not the most powerful skill, but it is fairly useful, fits with the 'theme' of AC, and is clearly visible to the player during combat.
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Megas

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Re: Advanced Countermeasures Ideas
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2017, 05:44:53 AM »

It does sound almost good enough in general and maybe even broken good for some specific designs (IPDAI tac lasers while venting...?).
Nevermind that, how about simply attacking with Light Needlers and LAGs (or Devastators)?  That is why the idea of adding shot range or some other global bonuses to PD weapons may not be such a great idea.

The only thing I might care about is level 3 perk to make PD beams stronger for PD, but there is Ordnance Expert for +15% damage for everything.  Then again, there are so few skill points that stuff like more hit points when player cannot force fights (or disengage when the enemy decides to swarm) does not help too much.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 05:47:03 AM by Megas »
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