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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Skills and Story Points (07/08/19)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 179157 times)

Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #435 on: June 07, 2017, 03:34:42 PM »

I tried overpowering Onslaught's shields with three Tachyon Lances.  Even with help from High-Energy Focus, that did not work.  At best, they barely overpowered the shield for scratch damage.  (Also, the range advantage is small.  If I stray into Onslaught TPC range, shield takes hits, and Odyssey must vent, wasting time.)  What works better is wait until Onslaught drops shield, then fire Tachyon Lances off to the side and clip the Onslaught before it raises shields fully.  That works until Onslaught is almost dead, it will keep shields up always, and overpowering shields without hard flux takes too long.

Tachyon Lances (and Mjolnir) are rare enough that I generally only have enough to fully outfit one capital with them by endgame.  (If I am not commissioned with Tri-Tachyon, I can only get them by looting enemy Paragons.)  Often times, I must use High Intensity Laser as a substitute.

If I try to fight another capital head-on with shorter-ranged weaponry (i.e., everything aside from 1000 range beams), even against a Conquest, Odyssey gets pounded into the ground, unless Claw (or Thunder) wings paralyze the enemy first.

Except for Odyssey, all capitals can go toe-to-toe against each other and have a chance to win.  Some, like Legion and Conquest, have a harder time against Paragon, but it is doable.  Odyssey needs to rely on cheese for a slim chance to win.

I do not want Odyssey to be pigeonholed into Tachyon Lance sniper boat because it lacks the defenses to slug it out like every other capital, even against less powerful ones like Conquest or Legion.

Odyssey is "not a brawler".  That is a problem.  High-Energy Focus is a brawler ship system.  If it cannot brawl, what can it do?  Legion and Astral are better carriers than Odyssey.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #436 on: June 07, 2017, 07:11:30 PM »

Finally tried out the new Locust, and it is much better.  It has become a good missile launcher.  It may be anti-fighter, but I use this as a general-purpose launcher against anything.  Even with frag damage, a swarm or two will likely kill a frigate or maybe a destroyer outright, and will do a ton of damage to anything else with armor blown off.  The best part of Locust is it is reliable.  Against a target with flux nearly capped and some armor blown off (or not in case of small targets), Locust shoots so many missiles that stopping them all is unlikely.  Also, the Locusts has plenty of shots; none of this three or five strikes and you're out nonsense.  I get to shoot Locust at least fifteen times.  If I bother to mount missiles on Conquest, a pair of Locusts is what I want.  More fun than quad Pilums (too easy to stop).
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Dri

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #437 on: June 07, 2017, 07:24:09 PM »

I thought the Locust was pretty okay even back when it first came out—it'd shred most anything that didn't have it's shields ready to block with the missiles being fast, accurate and reliable. With the OP Missile Spec 10, a single salvo from it could pop frigates with ease. Funnily enough though, I never once used it for actually killing fighters back then.

If you say it has gotten even better now... :o
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #438 on: June 07, 2017, 07:54:13 PM »

I thought Locust was rubbish when it first came out, not much better than Swarmers and little more than like a watered down Hurricane MIRV.  It is much better now.  I might have exaggerated how well new Locust does to small ships, probably due to not remembering everything right.

With Expanded Missile Racks, Locust is like Heavy Needler back in the ammo days.  Gryphon with Locusts and Expanded Missile Racks can probably fire Locusts for the whole fight.  Currently, I am experimenting with a Gryphon armed with two Light Needlers, a Heavy Mauler, two Vulcan for rear PD, and Locust.  I am holding the fire button down shooting off Locusts like no tomorrow.  Gryphon is more likely to die trying to brawl before running out of missiles the first time.
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Dri

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #439 on: June 07, 2017, 08:27:00 PM »

Well, I'm sure all my views on large missile weapons were skewed by Missile Spec 10. I almost never pilots ships what come with a large missile slot. =/
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TaLaR

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #440 on: June 07, 2017, 09:08:47 PM »

I do not want Odyssey to be pigeonholed into Tachyon Lance sniper boat because it lacks the defenses to slug it out like every other capital, even against less powerful ones like Conquest or Legion.

But it's the only reasonable conclusion after looking at Odyssey's new stats. It is TL sniper boat. Has range,speed and system that enable kite-sniping, but not much else.

I tried overpowering Onslaught's shields with three Tachyon Lances.  Even with help from High-Energy Focus, that did not work.  At best, they barely overpowered the shield for scratch damage.  (Also, the range advantage is small.  If I stray into Onslaught TPC range, shield takes hits, and Odyssey must vent, wasting time.)  What works better is wait until Onslaught drops shield, then fire Tachyon Lances off to the side and clip the Onslaught before it raises shields fully.  That works until Onslaught is almost dead, it will keep shields up always, and overpowering shields without hard flux takes too long.

Killed sim Onslaught with skill-less Odyssey (Tach Lances, Tac Lasers, Longbows) in 100 sec 1st attempt (I forgot to use Longbows) and 70 sec second.
As long as you sync HEF and Tachyon Lance fire, Onslaught gets easily overwhelmed.
A few vents if Onslaught fires some TPC aren't a problem either. HEF regenerates somewhat slower than Tach Lance recharge anyway.

I don't see much of a counter to Gauss Cannon using Capitals for Odyssey. But other than that, it easily stomps both Onslaught and Conquest (after baiting squalls). Other weapons don't matter much even if kinetic - only TPC and Gauss have enough range (vs TL + optics). HVD could also save Paragon from tactics described in EDIT2.

EDIT: just noticed that sim Onslaught has only DTC instead of ITU. Still, range safety margin seems sufficient even for ITU.

EDIT2: it is possible to solo sim Paragon with skill-less Odyssey. Takes pretty much whole 600 sec CR and does not have much margin for error. Basic idea is to stack hard flux with Longbows (short engage-regroup cycle to ensure they stay mostly within my shield) and then burst with HEF TLs as soon as Paragon drops shield (target it's side, this will give you few seconds before shield opened centrally extends enough to cover vulnerable point) . Admittedly, if Paragon simply didn't drop shield at low flux, this wouldn't work (within 600 sec timeframe).
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 11:29:10 PM by TaLaR »
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #441 on: June 08, 2017, 05:20:29 AM »

But it's the only reasonable conclusion after looking at Odyssey's new stats. It is TL sniper boat. Has range,speed and system that enable kite-sniping, but not much else.
And that hurts.  Odyssey used to have some durability to slug it out, and it lost what little durability it had.  Even with more speed, Odyssey is not very fast.  Even Conquest is not much slower if it spams Maneuverability Jets, and it is now almost a battleship thanks to additional durability.

Against Onslaught, if I use fighters, then sure, Tachyon Lance works.  But, if the fighters get picked off fast, and that can happen, then Tachyon Lance alone will not work.  I like to have some PD, especially with weak shields, so Tactical Lasers are not an option.

As for Paragon, I managed to kill it, after many attempts, with Claw fighters and triple plasma cannon.
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TaLaR

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #442 on: June 08, 2017, 06:59:42 AM »

And that hurts.  Odyssey used to have some durability to slug it out, and it lost what little durability it had.  Even with more speed, Odyssey is not very fast.  Even Conquest is not much slower if it spams Maneuverability Jets, and it is now almost a battleship thanks to additional durability.
Just adding armor to Conquest doesn't help it too much. All it's weapons (per side) are still compactly located near surface, and as such are easily disabled by incoming fire.
In comparison Onslaught can be reduced almost smoldering wreck and still keep half or more of it's weapons operational, unless EMP arcs are involved.

Against Onslaught, if I use fighters, then sure, Tachyon Lance works.  But, if the fighters get picked off fast, and that can happen, then Tachyon Lance alone will not work.  I like to have some PD, especially with weak shields, so Tactical Lasers are not an option.
TL + Tacs are enough even if I leave fighter slots empty. Just takes longer and leaves much less error margin.
As for PD... It's good on flak-wielding low-techs, especially Onslaught. On other ships you can't get PD that is good enough, and whatever amount of missiles it can stop, could also be stopped by shield + vent for free.

As for Paragon, I managed to kill it, after many attempts, with Claw fighters and triple plasma cannon.
Skill-less Odyssey vs sim Paragon? How?
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #443 on: June 08, 2017, 07:17:18 AM »

Conquest has two sides.  As I favor symmetrical configurations, if one side gets disabled, I use jets, turn, and use the other side.  Armor was not the only thing that got buffed, but also hull.  If Conquest gets Hardened Shields (or ton of capacitors), its durability gets close to battleship levels.  I had AI Conquest (with Mark IX, Heavy Maulers, Ion Beams, and Burst PD) go head-to-head with SIM Onslaught and it won.

As for Odyssey stopping missiles with shields, I do not want to do that with Odyssey's new weak shield if possible, especially if I want to fire flux hogs like plasma cannons.  Beam PD will not stop everything, but it will stop some.  Also, LR PD is now a useful generalist weapon, it is cheaper and faster than Tactical Laser, IPDAI (which I may not find without commission), and Advanced Gyros combo.  It does not have as much range or power, but with Odyssey's low OP budget, I need something cheap and effective, which probably means either PD or LR PD.

Skill-less Odyssey vs sim Paragon? How?
Like I said, many attempts.  Claws paralyze Paragon.  Odyssey smashes Paragon as fast as possible with plasma cannons while Paragon is helpless long enough.  It is much harder than it sounds, harder than with any other capital.
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TaLaR

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #444 on: June 08, 2017, 07:58:22 AM »

Conquest has two sides.  As I favor symmetrical configurations, if one side gets disabled, I use jets, turn, and use the other side.  Armor was not the only thing that got buffed, but also hull.  If Conquest gets Hardened Shields (or ton of capacitors), its durability gets close to battleship levels.  I had AI Conquest (with Mark IX, Heavy Maulers, Ion Beams, and Burst PD) go head-to-head with SIM Onslaught and it won.

That maneuver takes a lot of time when you are just a target to be shot. If enemy has decent dps they will disable second side right as you are turning. It can be occasionally useful, but that's about it.
I find asymmetric Gauss on one side more versatile. Any enemy ship can be Gauss-sniped, but there is no reason to have that on both sides.

As for Odyssey stopping missiles with shields, I do not want to do that with Odyssey's new weak shield if possible, especially if I want to fire flux hogs like plasma cannons.  Beam PD will not stop everything, but it will stop some.  Also, LR PD is now a useful generalist weapon, it is cheaper and faster than Tactical Laser, IPDAI (which I may not find without commission), and Advanced Gyros combo.  It does not have as much range or power, but with Odyssey's low OP budget, I need something cheap and effective, which probably means either PD or LR PD.

Problem is, unless you start stacking Guardians, beam PD doesn't even make a dent against some missiles.
Squalls are the worst offenders. They can be baited, dodged, shield-tanked or shot down manually by TL/HIL, but PD fire against them is waste of flux, as near 100% of them get through anyway.
Annihilators and MIRVs are similar in terms of overwhelming beam PD, though not quite 100% get through.

And these are the most annoying. If you can handle them (through whatever non-PD means) the rest should not be a problem.
At least as long as no Templar Clarents are involved. Against them burst PD is the correct choice.

Like I said, many attempts.  Claws paralyze Paragon.  Odyssey smashes Paragon as fast as possible with plasma cannons while Paragon is helpless long enough.  It is much harder than it sounds, harder than with any other capital.

I tried, but don't understand what would force Paragon to drop shield in this scenario. Claws get shot down easily and Odyssey has very short survival time within hard-flux weapon range.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 08:02:52 AM by TaLaR »
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #445 on: June 08, 2017, 09:37:31 AM »

Not a fan of Gauss Cannon unless I absolutely need the range to kill a Paragon.  It is slow and a flux hog.  Still, Gauss on one side is flexible if encountering Paragon is likely, I give you that.

I do not need beam PD to work against every missile.  Yes, Squalls, that is a lost cause for an Odyssey unless it uses Guardian PD (and for other ships unless they stack three or more dual flak).  Many other missiles, can be shot down.  Maybe not huge clouds like Onslaught's Annihilators, but some here and there, like those fired by smaller ships, sure.

Burst PD is ideal, but they are somewhat rare, and in case of Odyssey, is too OP starved to afford many of them.  PD and LR PD are almost as common as dirt, and LR PD is a usable alternative to Tactical Laser.

Quote
I tried, but don't understand what would force Paragon to drop shield in this scenario. Claws get shot down easily and Odyssey has very short survival time within hard-flux weapon range.
Sometimes, they just drop it.  This is how Paragon playership can solo much in the simulator (other capitals and cruisers drop shields when they think it is safe, then fire Tachyon Lances to the side and clip them before shields go back up), and how Warthogs can sometimes brutalize ships they swarm faster than they should because the AI sometimes drops shields when they should not.  In case of triple plasma cannon vs. Paragon.  It would put quite a bit of hard flux on the shield if Paragon does not use Fortress Shield.  AI in Starsector does not always play perfectly.

And I emphasize many attempts.  Triple plasma cannon against Paragon and winning is possible but impractical.

And the problem I have with Odyssey is it cannot fight like any other capital against another and win.  Odyssey cannot outfight other capitals.  Even Conquest can get into slugging matches and win now.  Odyssey does not excel in fighter spam - Legion and Astral do that much better, and Legion can get into a slugging match and win.  Astral... it has six wings of fighters to do all of its dirty work.  Odyssey needs to rely on cheese and/or luck to win against other capitals.

P.S.
Quote
That maneuver takes a lot of time when you are just a target to be shot. If enemy has decent dps they will disable second side right as you are turning. It can be occasionally useful, but that's about it.
Not always.  They often get disabled while my ship vents or before shields go up or I miscalculated and did not move the shield enough to block that Hellbore shot or something.  Whatever the reason, shield gets raised, Conquest has flux to spare, spins, and side two is ready to fire.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 09:47:39 AM by Megas »
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #446 on: June 08, 2017, 11:12:57 AM »

Another weapon comment:  Played with Hammer Barrage some more, and it feels underwhelming for the OP I pay.  I did a quick peek at the codex, and the total damage it can do is 30,000, only 50% more than medium Annihilators or Reapers.  And since the launcher sprays Hammers, hitting with all of them is not very easy, especially with the ships that have large missiles mounts in the first place.  The only things going for Barrage is the DPS and availability in Open Market.  The DPS in mitigated by clip getting emptied about as quickly as a small missile rack.  Either Barrage needs more ammo or its OP cost lowered a bit, like 18.
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Dri

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #447 on: June 08, 2017, 12:44:54 PM »

Quote
3) The Hammer Barrage only has 20 ammo? The Cyclone also has 20 ammo! HB only gets 5 volleys @ 6000 dmg potential VS. Cyclone's 10 volleys @ 8000 damage potential. Yes the Cyclone is 6 OP more expensive but I think the HB could at least come with 2 or so more volleys (so 28 ammo or something).

I said that a few weeks ago about the Hammer Barrage. Is it doomed to remain near trash-tier for a long time, like the old Thumper?
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #448 on: June 08, 2017, 12:57:39 PM »

Locust is only 18 OP, but has homing and 12000 total DPS.  Sure, it is frag damage, but it is good to launch at anything with flux nearly max and armor stripped.  If ship has weak armor to begin with, even better - just shoot.  Only problem with Locust is rarity.

Sure, Hammer Barrage can be substandard due to being Open Market, but it should be cheap to mount (or made better), which Barrage is not at 20 OP.  Open Market weapons tend to be relatively cheap on OP cost.
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icepick37

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #449 on: June 08, 2017, 01:44:29 PM »

So Nav Relay kind of feels like cheating.

Boosts speed across the board all the time? Flock of hermes never felt so good.  :)
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