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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Skills and Story Points (07/08/19)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 179122 times)

SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #240 on: June 01, 2017, 01:46:36 AM »

What's wrong with Odyssey? It's one of the better looking ships, with its own style too.

Gothars

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #241 on: June 01, 2017, 03:45:56 AM »

Out of curiosity, given the Odyssey has a higher combat deployment cost than a Onslaught, would you not want the Odyssey to beat the Onslaught, or at least have 50/50 odds?

The Odyssey is a battlecruiser, the Onslaught a battleship. The hallmark of a battlecruiser is speed and flexibility, with the ability to hunt down smaller ships and outmaneuver bigger ones. The specialty of a battleship is facing opponents head-on with unmatched defense and firepower.
It's totally OK if, in a fleet battle with room for tactics, maneuvers, multi vector attacks and distractions, a battlecruiser manages to outmaneuver and kill a battleship. That's what it is supposed to do.
But in an 1-on-1, when attacking the enemy directly from the front, the battleship ought to win every time.  That's what it is supposed to do.

What's wrong with Odyssey? It's one of the better looking ships, with its own style too.

Agreed, I like it fine.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 04:00:49 AM by Gothars »
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #242 on: June 01, 2017, 05:36:21 AM »

It would be nice if Odyssey got at least +5 OP for Wasps.  I already need to leave missiles empty (even if I want them) unless I take Loadout Design 3.

Quote
What's wrong with Odyssey? It's one of the better looking ships, with its own style too.
Same as Aurora pre-0.8.  Too slow and no shot range to speak of.  Every other capital outguns and/or outranges it.  Even cruisers with ballistics can kite-and-snipe it to death, just like they did to Paragon during 0.7x.  Fighters could make up for poor range, but one wing of fighters is not enough.  And against things Odyssey can kill, it cannot catch.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #243 on: June 01, 2017, 05:38:14 AM »

The Odyssey is a battlecruiser, the Onslaught a battleship. The hallmark of a battlecruiser is speed and flexibility, with the ability to hunt down smaller ships and outmaneuver bigger ones. The specialty of a battleship is facing opponents head-on with unmatched defense and firepower.
It's totally OK if, in a fleet battle with room for tactics, maneuvers, multi vector attacks and distractions, a battlecruiser manages to outmaneuver and kill a battleship. That's what it is supposed to do.
But in an 1-on-1, when attacking the enemy directly from the front, the battleship ought to win every time.  That's what it is supposed to do.

Thanks for the clarification.  That raises a question in my mind, where does the Legion fall on that spectrum of battlecruiser to battleship?  Or is it orthogonal due to being twice as much carrier as the Odyssey?

Given its specs, the Legion looks a lot like a low tech version of the Odyssey.  It has an ability capable of getting it into combat with cruisers  (as a number of my destroyed Eagle will attest to), a similar number of guns, and multiple wings of fighters.  However, in AI battles, there are variants, such as the fire support, which beat the various Onslaught variants as well as a default style Odyssey, buffed or not.  Mostly because the Onslaught is unwilling to burn drive on the Legion after the first time it drives in to make contact, similar to how it doesn't seem to burn drive on the Odyssey - which I think is why it doesn't win in the AI battles.  It plays to the Odyssesy's shield strengths where as the Onslaught's armor is much better if it just keeps pressuring the Odyssey after that first exchange.

A human piloted Onslaught doesn't seem to have any problems with an Odyssey or Legion, as it just burn dives in and drops them in under 30 seconds.  Any Onslaught variant seems to work.  The current AI seems really hesitant to burn drive in with an Onslaught, other than for the very first contact.
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #244 on: June 01, 2017, 05:47:44 AM »

Odyssey is closer to being a battlecruiser (which it was for a long time), while Legion is battlecarrier. The balance relies on that the Odyssey is faster and has weapon-boosting system, while Legion is better at providing support fire and has more fighters.

Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #245 on: June 01, 2017, 05:56:43 AM »

Legion has campaign stats closer to a battleship, and despite having fewer guns, it can focus-fire nearly all of them ahead for maximum firepower, much like Blackrock's (classic) Karkinos.  A well configured Legion can go toe-to-toe with a battleship and win.  Legion is much like the Battlestar Galactica, a battleship and carrier rolled into one.  Legion cannot divide its personal firepower against multiple targets like Onslaught, Paragon, and Conquest can, but it has fighters to do that job.
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #246 on: June 01, 2017, 06:49:59 AM »

Alex: just wanted you to know that Apogee's flares being decent spammable PD and decent spammable distraction for enemy PD is brilliant! I haven't used it much, but it's very funny to me that they can actually be used offensively as well.
From tests conducted on Dominator the funniest thing is that flaks didn't quite knew what to do with flares, while vulcannons shot at them without even hitting them. It really made my day.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 06:52:56 AM by SCC »
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XMod

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #247 on: June 01, 2017, 06:57:23 AM »

I want an artillery platforms with a range of from 2000
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #248 on: June 01, 2017, 07:02:37 AM »

I want an artillery platforms with a range of from 2000
Tachyon Lance Paragon.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #249 on: June 01, 2017, 07:05:06 AM »

Use carriers.  Fighters are effectively homing weapons, and have much more range (3000+) than beam Paragon or Gauss Cannons.  Carriers can solo things other ships cannot.
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FooF

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #250 on: June 01, 2017, 07:29:39 AM »

Out of curiosity, given the Odyssey has a higher combat deployment cost than a Onslaught, would you not want the Odyssey to beat the Onslaught, or at least have 50/50 odds?

The Odyssey is a battlecruiser, the Onslaught a battleship. The hallmark of a battlecruiser is speed and flexibility, with the ability to hunt down smaller ships and outmaneuver bigger ones. The specialty of a battleship is facing opponents head-on with unmatched defense and firepower.
It's totally OK if, in a fleet battle with room for tactics, maneuvers, multi vector attacks and distractions, a battlecruiser manages to outmaneuver and kill a battleship. That's what it is supposed to do.
But in an 1-on-1, when attacking the enemy directly from the front, the battleship ought to win every time.  That's what it is supposed to do.

As for the deployment cost of the Odyssey (vìs-a-vìs the Onslaught), it's following the high-tech philosophy of "it likely won't take as much hull damage and it can engage/disengage way better than slow bruisers." With 80 speed, two flight decks, a really deep flux pool and good shield, I think it falls in line with that design pretty well.

Since SS is World War II in space, an interesting designation regarding battlecruisers were that they were armed like a battleship but not armored like one. Battleships were routinely armored so that they could withstand a barrage from their own guns. As guns increased in caliber, the armored belt around the battleships grew heavier and the ships became slower. Most navies by WWII had gone to an "all-or-none" armored system (to go along with the "all big gun" approach to dreadnoughts): having some armor that couldn't withstand the highest caliber weapons was actually less efficient than not having any armor at all, since a direct hit would destroy the ship either way. So, many naval vessels had minimal armor to increase speed. Battlecruisers were a part of this design: as well armed as a battleship but considerably faster because they weren't encumbered by thick armor. The problem, of course, is that if a real battleship showed up, the battlecruiser had no defense. Obviously, SS isn't a 1:1 to representation but the Conquest and Odyssey are both fast and hit relatively hard but they can't take the same pounding as an Onslaught or Paragon.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #251 on: June 01, 2017, 07:31:54 AM »

Just to add one last data point, I continued playing around in the simulator some more, and find for 1 on 1 battles, the Onslaught does much better with the Eliminate order rather than the default autopilot and no specific orders.  The extra aggressiveness seems to make it rely on its armor more and keep pressure on the opponent's shields, which plays to its strengths better.  It handily deals with the Legion and seems to handle the buffed Odyssey much better as well.  Again small sample size though.

Anyways, thanks for the clarifications.  They were very informative.  And thanks again to Alex for such a fun game to play around with.  I appreciate how easy he made it to mess around with a good portion of the code base.  Its kinda fun tweaking stuff to see its effects in game.  :)
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #252 on: June 01, 2017, 07:42:59 AM »

As for the deployment cost of the Odyssey (vìs-a-vìs the Onslaught), it's following the high-tech philosophy of "it likely won't take as much hull damage and it can engage/disengage way better than slow bruisers." With 80 speed, two flight decks, a really deep flux pool and good shield, I think it falls in line with that design pretty well.
Not sure about that.  Flux pool is good, but not as good as Conquest.  As for shield, if Odyssey kept 0.8 shield, I would agree, although it still was not very durable to begin with, especially if you need that flux to attack things.  At 1.0, it would be no more durable than Aurora.

Two fighters bays but no additional OP to support that?  Unless Talons are still overpowered for their cost (despite getting weakened), that would be hard to afford two good fighters without sacrificing something.  I already eschew medium missiles to get what I need to make Odyssey somewhat decent.


P.S.  I agree with Hiruma Kai's earlier points.  I expect what I pay for, and if Odyssey costs more to use than Onslaught, Conquest, or Legion, I expect Odyssey to be on par if not outperform less expensive capitals somewhat in overall combat performance.

That said, with skills, Astral is the most powerful ship in the game of 0.8, and it is cheaper than Paragon.  (Yes, I know skills, some overpowered fighters, and Unstable Injector will be weakened.)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 07:49:29 AM by Megas »
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #253 on: June 01, 2017, 08:29:26 AM »

I think that maintenance reduction would be better for Odyssey than another combat buff.

Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #254 on: June 01, 2017, 08:42:01 AM »

Maybe.  About the only campaign goodies Odyssey has are slightly bigger capacities and higher burn speed made irrelevant by Sustained Burn.  As for campaign buff, it would need to be cheaper to use as you say (like lowering DP cost from 45 to 35 would be a start).  Making it a true hybrid like Apogee could work, but somebody else commented something to the effect he would not use it for combat if that happened.  I would not blame him for not deploying a capital that gets outranged and outgunned by every other capital, including weaker ones like Conquest.
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