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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Raiding for Fun and Profit (11/27/19)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 181353 times)

FooF

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2017, 06:50:09 AM »

Like other people, i'm also a bit worried with that huge Odyssey buff. I think the second launch bay is a good idea, but the 90 speed change might be too much. While an absurdly fast capital ship will undoubtedly fun to fly, it's also likely to be quite infuriating to fight.

Scenarios similar to the kiting Heron comes to mind, an AI Odyssey would make for a difficult opponent if you don't have an overwhelming amount of firepower and the speed to bring it to the enemy. Even then, you also need to make sure you can get in range while weathering the HEF boosted barrage of fire, not many ships can do that. In the end, a single Odyssey could drag on a battle for a while, devolving the encounter in a CR war.

That's only the theory though. I think testing against an Odyssey would be more important than testing as an Odyssey to avoid making it unfun.

Fair points. We'll have to see if it can indeed kite well enough to become annoying but even at best, the Odyssey is neither an offensive nor defensive juggernaut. Given equal deployment costs, I don't think even a speedy Odyssey is going to dictate engagements as much as a less costly Onslaught, Legion, or Astral. I do believe that with the change, the Odyssey will leapfrog the Conquest, though.

Quote
About the fighters, while i'm happy with pretty much everything here (Nerfed Talon and Spark, Thunder reworked as a long range interceptor), i'm really surprised by the castration of the Piranha. The Lmg was incredibly useful for shield-breaking and general PD purpose, the bomb arming time will also reduce the efficiency of their point blank bombing runs. It's not like it was a godly bomber to begin with, very situational (only works against slow enemies without flak) and dangerously prone to cause friendly fire, i'm not sure of the why of this nerf. Especially since the very strong Kopesh have been left untouched here.

So... Yeah, if that lmg doesn't come back, perhaps replacing it with something else? How about frag bombs, like in the old days? I remember the battlefield littered by random explosions looking very pretty.

I scratched my head a bit on this one, too. The Piranha is not intra-competitive with any of the other bombers but costs just as much. If it's the "poor man's" bomber, I guess I could understand the nerf but that would necessitate a OP cost of 5 or something. Alternatively, with the nerf, I think it could stand to go up to 4 bombers per wing. If all it's doing is carpet-bombing (with a bomb-delay no less), at least completely saturate the area. The LMG was the lone-saving grace vs. a Khopesh.
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Sy

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2017, 07:03:29 AM »

I'm not sure Advanced Countermeasures should even exist to begin with, in light of these changes.
i gotta agree with this.

i think the reduced kinetic damage against armor and reduced HE damage against shields are just bad perks from a design perspective; making kinetic/HE even worse against the things they're already bad at doesn't seem like a great idea, especially since the numbers need to be pretty big to be worth spending a skill point on mitigating damage from what is already only a minor threat (relative to other damage types).

increased damage to missiles and fighters sounds fine to me, but problematic for the reasons Histidine mentioned when the number gets as large as +50% -- which, yes, it probably needs to be for a rank 3 perk.

if just removing the skill is undesirable, here are some other suggestions for what the different ranks could do:
  • retain higher armor damage reduction on exposed hull
  • convert a portion of all shield damage taken into soft flux rather than hard flux (should be a significant amount, since there's already a perk that completely negates 20% of all shield damage taken)
  • make some projectiles/missiles pass through unphased phase ships (or just reduce all damage taken), as long as cloak is not on cooldown (so it wouldn't make phase ships that recloak asap more annoying to fight)
  • increase range of PD weapons
  • increase accuracy / reduce recoil / improve target-leading of PD weapons
  • reduce flux of PD weapons (maybe by a flat amount, so low-flux PD weapons would become zero-flux)
  • increase firing rate of PD weapons (unlike damage boost, this would be visible to an opponent. but wouldn't really work for beams)
  • reduce speed/maneuverability of missiles locked onto this ship (this might also be problematic to communicate to the attacker though)
  • increased/guaranteed chance for flamed-out missiles to harmlessly bounce off this ship

i imagine some of these might not work well in practise, but i think there are enough possibilities to make an "Advanced Countermeasures" skill useful without its current balance and design issues.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2017, 07:19:52 AM »

The only reason for me to think about Advanced Countermeasures is to give beam PD some much needed power, but spending three points for that is too high a cost.  Armor and shields are already quite effective against damage types they are good at, so I see no reason to spend a point on a frivolous benefit.
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kobeathris

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #78 on: May 25, 2017, 07:23:28 AM »

Any plans to make the Combat skill tree more appealing? As it stands, the other three seem to be outshining it pretty hard. Everyone I have spoken to says they don't use any Combat skills.

Not at the moment, no. I'd like to see how it shakes out later on; personally I think it's getting overlooked a bit right now because the new stuff is shiny while combat got a nerf. It's still quite good, though - I've played through with a combat character - so I think things may swing back in its direction a bit. Not entirely opposed to buffing it some, though.


Just wanted to chime in that in a play through to level 40 with a fairly even split between combat, leadership, and tech, slightly leaning toward combat, I found that I could accomplish quite a lot with 1 Eagle (Flagship), 2 Pirate Eagles (restored and with combat officers), 2 Sunders (No Officers, HIL), a Heron and a Drover (Both with Carrier officers).  My biggest problem was with high tech fleets, as I had to be really careful in dealing with phase ships, since I didn't have a good way to get rid of them quickly, and they can cause havoc. I would reload after failed battles to try again, but I was up to 270 to 300K (Legion flagship for one, Doom for another) bounties and heavily out numbered and still able to win with this setup. It would have been easier with a larger fleet, but not having to worry much about fuel and supplies was the trade off.
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Embolism

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #79 on: May 25, 2017, 07:25:34 AM »

I think Front/Makeshift Shield Generator comes with enough downsides to not need another one. Firstly it costs OP, secondly it opens the ship up to overloading which it can do easily with its low efficiency and the poor flux stats of the ships that can use it. In the AI's hands a Hound overloading with a few hits may well be less effective than one that doesn't and gets a few more shots in. Not to mention it's so narrow the shield may do nothing at all and end up just being wasted OP.

I understand where "it boosts their effectiveness relatively too much" comes from but that seems to be the point of MSG? The hullmod can only be equipped on a very select few ships, all of which happen to be loot pinatas in the hands of AIs and nigh-unusable in the hands of players. If MSG makes trash-tier ships garbage-tier instead it basically makes zero difference since they just end up not being used, so MSG may as well not exist.

Plus I think looking at relative effectiveness boosts is misleading. Taking Unstable Injectors as an example, a 15% range debuff for a Capital is IMO more crippling than the same debuff for a Frigate for various reasons. If MSG boosted trash-tier ships by 100% that doesn't make it too strong to exist because when you take into account the "various reasons": namely the ships that can use it are trash-tier: it's quite balanced. If the issue is that it becomes "mandatory" well... isn't that what's been done with ITU/DTC for most ships?



Also:

  • Colossus freighter now properly has the "civgrade" hullmod

Quote from: Embolism
Inb4 patch notes: fixed bug where the Colossus-class heavy freighter did not have the "Civilian-grade hull" hullmod.

Called it. :D



P.S. TT Brawler getting Plasma Jets is pretty cool, but it really needs those extra flux stats the description promises. If it's not possible to change this via skins then it should get built-in flux hullmods or maybe just be its own hull. That, or Energy weapons need their possible overhaul; especially if TT is going to be re-purposing more midlines (and also for existing midlines like Eagle/Falcon).
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 07:42:01 AM by Embolism »
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #80 on: May 25, 2017, 07:42:24 AM »

MSG takes garbage-tier ships and makes them barely combat-worthy by giving them something all combat ships need to have. It's an OP tax. It shouldn't have a downside because it's an OP tax, just like DTC and ITU.
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Embolism

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2017, 07:49:01 AM »

This new acronym is making me hungry.

But yeah it's similar ITU/DTC for shieldless ships, and apparently ITU/DTC is actively encouraged to be mandatory aside from ships that clearly don't benefit from it. That seems quite similar to monosodium glutamate where it's near-mandatory (except not quite because it opens the ship up to flux-locking and overloading which may end up being worse than not having it for AIs) aside from ships that can't use it.

Plus hullmods now have a new balancing factor: rarity. ITU is "mandatory" but isn't available readily. MSG could be similar: if say it's available by about midgame, it may be thought of as something that keeps shieldless ships relevant as weaponry that chews through them becomes increasingly prevalent.



Also re: Venture.

Having built-in mining pods is fine: I get they're not meant to be good (although in that case I don't see much reason for them to be slottable either, they should probably be like Borers). The issue is it locks the Venture out of using Converted Hangars, and it seems weird that ships with no hangars at all can get superior carrier capacity than a ship that already has a half-hangar but cannot improve it in any way. You can't really cite "civilian ship" as a reason as every other civilian ship can get Converted Hangars to be better carriers than the Venture.

If it has to keep mining pods I think having two wings would help even things out, and not make it weirdly less effective than the Shepherd. 8x mining beams on a cruiser vs 6x on a frigate doesn't seem like it would break the bank.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 08:00:51 AM by Embolism »
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RawCode

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #82 on: May 25, 2017, 08:05:53 AM »


Quote
Bounty level goes up with player level even if the player hasn't been doing bounties

one step closer to obvilion in space and difficulty slider.

Hardly, bounties are something you have to actively seek out.

keep level low and get money by other means - steamroll level scaled spawns like superhuman.
vs.
focus on non combat skills and suck really hard.
vs.
get high level but no heavy\powerfull ships and rageout.

it's probably fun, but in really it is not.
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Deshara

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2017, 08:08:49 AM »

I'm not sure Advanced Countermeasures should even exist to begin with, in light of these changes.
i gotta agree with this.

i think the reduced kinetic damage against armor and reduced HE damage against shields are just bad perks from a design perspective; making kinetic/HE even worse against the things they're already bad at doesn't seem like a great idea, especially since the numbers need to be pretty big to be worth spending a skill point on mitigating damage from what is already only a minor threat (relative to other damage types).

increased damage to missiles and fighters sounds fine to me, but problematic for the reasons Histidine mentioned when the number gets as large as +50% -- which, yes, it probably needs to be for a rank 3 perk.

if just removing the skill is undesirable, here are some other suggestions for what the different ranks could do:
  • retain higher armor damage reduction on exposed hull
  • convert a portion of all shield damage taken into soft flux rather than hard flux (should be a significant amount, since there's already a perk that completely negates 20% of all shield damage taken)
  • make some projectiles/missiles pass through unphased phase ships (or just reduce all damage taken), as long as cloak is not on cooldown (so it wouldn't make phase ships that recloak asap more annoying to fight)
  • increase range of PD weapons
  • increase accuracy / reduce recoil / improve target-leading of PD weapons
  • reduce flux of PD weapons (maybe by a flat amount, so low-flux PD weapons would become zero-flux)
  • increase firing rate of PD weapons (unlike damage boost, this would be visible to an opponent. but wouldn't really work for beams)
  • reduce speed/maneuverability of missiles locked onto this ship (this might also be problematic to communicate to the attacker though)
  • increased/guaranteed chance for flamed-out missiles to harmlessly bounce off this ship

i imagine some of these might not work well in practise, but i think there are enough possibilities to make an "Advanced Countermeasures" skill useful without its current balance and design issues.

It is useful because the AI doesn't focus damage types the way players do..
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #84 on: May 25, 2017, 08:17:56 AM »

keep level low and get money by other means - steamroll level scaled spawns like superhuman.
vs.
focus on non combat skills and suck really hard.
vs.
get high level but no heavy\powerfull ships and rageout.
1. Impossible. There is no way to prevent leveling up; you can not spend your skill points, but you'll still level up. Additionally, this already happened if a player built up a large fleet through non-bounty means; no matter how large your fleet, you'd still start off fighting 3 Mudskipper MkIIs and a Kite (D). This change was made so this scenario you're predicting could happen, won't happen.
2. If you're doing a non-combat build, why are you doing bounties? Surveying, scanning, and scavenging exist now. How many points can you put into non-combat skills anyway, is it even possible to do a dedicated non-combat build?
3. If you got high level through non-bounty means, you can keep doing that while you wait for a "heavy" ship to spawn. If you got high level through doing bounties, the bounties would be scaling anyway, and thus you'd run into this problem anyway.

Additionally, the old system of bounty scaling isn't being removed. As you do bounties, they'll scale up like they did previously. All this does is prevent surveying magnates who want to get into bounty hunting from having to start by killing the aforementioned 3 Mudskippers and a Kite (D) fleet 3 times so the bounties start leveling up.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #85 on: May 25, 2017, 08:50:55 AM »

Just thought of something:  Aurora with Plasma Jets is actually faster than Medusa.  If I try to kite with Medusa (with Needlers and Ion Beam), Aurora will use Plasma Jets to charge and force the fight.  Phase Skimmer lets my Medusa escape, at first.  However, Plasma Jets recharge faster than Phase Skimmer and eventually, Medusa runs out of Phase Skimmer charges and cannot escape, then Aurora lays the smackdown fast and wins.

Thus, it may not be totally uncalled for Odyssey having 90 speed.
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Sy

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2017, 09:15:39 AM »

It is useful because the AI doesn't focus damage types the way players do..
that doesn't make it "useful", in the sense of being worth a skill point, it just means it has an effect at all... obviously it's balanced/designed with the assumption that inefficient damage types are being fired against the two defenses, yes. that doesn't change the fact that kinetic damage vs armor and HE damage vs shields are already by far the least threatening (excluding frag damage, which is intentionally niche).

if i didn't go off the assumption that the AI uses inefficient damage types, i wouldn't be discussing "balance and design issues" of these perks in the first place, because they would have literally zero effect. :P
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Embolism

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2017, 09:17:20 AM »

I feel the Medusa and, to some extent, the Wolf are falling behind. The Medusa isn't really the "deadly black ops destroyer" it's trumped up to be nowadays.
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Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2017, 09:53:35 AM »

I really liked the ideas from Sy about Advanced Countermeasures and agree that the current skill doesn't look that fun, so started a new thread with additional ideas/suggestions: Thread
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2017, 10:16:28 AM »

I feel the Medusa and, to some extent, the Wolf are falling behind. The Medusa isn't really the "deadly black ops destroyer" it's trumped up to be nowadays.
They are fairly good against most things in their weight class, but they cannot punch above their weight like they used to.  That said, I agree they no longer evoke fear.  If anything, Drover is the new Medusa or destroyer heavyweight.  Just give Drover Broadswords and Warthogs as its "weapons", slap Expended Deck Crew, Extended Shields, and Unstable Injector for hullmods.  Just kite and spam its Reserve Deployment system, and watch Drover's fighters shred frigates or punch above its weight like Medusa and Enforcer used to do.
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