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News: Starsector 0.9a is out! (11/16/18); In-dev patch notes for 0.9.1a (01/31/19)
 
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Author Topic: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 152764 times)
Alex
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« Reply #480 on: June 15, 2017, 10:14:17 AM »

Yeah, not going to let the cat out of the bag too early Smiley

Re: Warthogs, definitely keeping various feedback in mind here.
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Thaago
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« Reply #481 on: June 15, 2017, 12:05:29 PM »

They are tricky - I tried also lowering their offense to 2 mortars, but then they were too anemic. I kind of like them offensively powerful but defensively weaker - still murderous against a distracted target but less able to just crush everything by themselves.
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Dri
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« Reply #482 on: June 15, 2017, 04:25:53 PM »

I honestly like Sy's idea of making them somewhat bigger, thus easier to hit. They do seem rather small for such a heavy, durable craft.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 04:29:49 PM by Dri » Logged
MesoTroniK
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« Reply #483 on: June 16, 2017, 12:42:33 AM »

I honestly like Sy's idea of making them somewhat bigger, thus easier to hit. They do seem rather small for such a heavy, durable craft.

If I was nerfing the Warthog this is what I would do.

- Make Decoy Flare launcher the single shot version instead of the current triple shot salvo.
- Make its sprite and hitbox significantly larger and easier to hit, somewhere around the size of the Gladius and Xyphos.
- Lower armor to 175.
- Raise its OP cost significantly so they serve as a high end investment of the ship's total loadout.

That combo of changes should be plenty to bring it in line, and also look cooler and more proportional to the power the wing wields.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 12:46:19 AM by MesoTroniK » Logged

FooF
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« Reply #484 on: June 16, 2017, 07:23:32 AM »

I honestly like Sy's idea of making them somewhat bigger, thus easier to hit. They do seem rather small for such a heavy, durable craft.

If I was nerfing the Warthog this is what I would do.

- Make Decoy Flare launcher the single shot version instead of the current triple shot salvo.
- Make its sprite and hitbox significantly larger and easier to hit, somewhere around the size of the Gladius and Xyphos.
- Lower armor to 175.
- Raise its OP cost significantly so they serve as a high end investment of the ship's total loadout.

That combo of changes should be plenty to bring it in line, and also look cooler and more proportional to the power the wing wields.


They'd be nerfed to oblivion with that. Pick two, at most.

I like the idea of a larger hitbox. If they are hit by heavier caliber weaponry, that would definitely reduce their overall longevity.
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Megas
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« Reply #485 on: June 16, 2017, 08:52:12 AM »

I would pick single flare and either larger sprite or 15-18 OP cost.  Leave the armor alone if its speed will not be raised to match other fighters.  The only reason Warthogs' slow speed is tolerable is they kill stuff, except the silly frigates that outrun them.
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TaLaR
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« Reply #486 on: June 16, 2017, 10:11:59 AM »

except the silly frigates that outrun them.

Smart frigates. AI shouldn't behave stupidly just because it would be convenient for player in some situations.

In fact, not smart enough - DEs could outrun too, if they intentionally held fire for zero-flux boost. Or kill Warthogs while kiting them, instead of charging right into cloud of fighters and exposing their unshielded rear.
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Megas
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« Reply #487 on: June 16, 2017, 10:44:50 AM »

Smart frigates. AI shouldn't behave stupidly just because it would be convenient for player in some situations.
That is the thing about AI.  Some players want the best AI, get it, then complain the game is too hard, or at least not fun.

I am contemplating building an endurance fleet.  That is, a fleet of flagships designed to hide in the corner and stall until every last enemy ship runs out of the CR because they are too cowardly, similar to what happened against enemy Timid officers during earlier 0.7x days.

Enemy want to run away from my big ship and not die unless it thinks it can swarm my ship?  I will exploit that.  Move just enough for some ships to approach, back into corner and they run away like little cowards, then wait, and repeat until their CR hits zero first and they cannot do that anymore.
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TaLaR
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« Reply #488 on: June 16, 2017, 11:15:20 AM »

Smart frigates. AI shouldn't behave stupidly just because it would be convenient for player in some situations.
That is the thing about AI.  Some players want the best AI, get it, then complain the game is too hard, or at least not fun.

I am contemplating building an endurance fleet.  That is, a fleet of flagships designed to hide in the corner and stall until every last enemy ship runs out of the CR because they are too cowardly, similar to what happened against enemy Timid officers during earlier 0.7x days.

Enemy want to run away from my big ship and not die unless it thinks it can swarm my ship?  I will exploit that.  Move just enough for some ships to approach, back into corner and they run away like little cowards, then wait, and repeat until their CR hits zero first and they cannot do that anymore.

The very existence of map corners is problematic. They don't make lore-sense and are literally AI corner cases.

But AI could counter that by waiting for you just outside of CR decay radius, thus making stalemate yours to resolve.
Or if they have enough mass to make you tick, put exactly enough ships at max CR decay range to either successfully bait you or win by CR.
There is usually counter-cheese available, as long as one wants to look for it...
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Megas
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« Reply #489 on: June 16, 2017, 12:03:34 PM »

The very existence of map corners is problematic. They don't make lore-sense and are literally AI corner cases.

But AI could counter that by waiting for you just outside of CR decay radius, thus making stalemate yours to resolve.
Or if they have enough mass to make you tick, put exactly enough ships at max CR decay range to either successfully bait you or win by CR.
There is usually counter-cheese available, as long as one wants to look for it...
They wait outside the radius, until you move just enough for them to decide they can swarm you safely, then you immediately backpedal.  They will get close and fire a few shots, but if your ship is something like a Paragon, they have little chance of breaching your defenses on time, and then they retreat when they see you withdraw back into your corner.  I repeat this as long as my ship has peak performance.  As long as I have more time then them, I win.  It is a slow win, but it is very efficient in terms of resources spent (if you need to deploy all to stand a chance otherwise).

Also, the player can limit the number of ships by lowering battle map size to the minimum of 150.  Unless the enemy sends two cruisers or a capital against your capital, your peak performance cannot tick down because the enemy does not send enough small ships to make your ship tick down.

Actually, if the player lowers battle map size for any reason, he may be forced to solo fleets since 60 DP is only enough for a Paragon and one other 10 DP ship, and that 10 DP wingman will probably die.

If my peak performance expires, I simply full retreat and start over for round two (or three or more) until the enemy is defeated.  The enemy will lose CR for more ships than my one.

Normally, I like to play with max battle size, but if there is superior fleet I cannot beat fairly, and the enemy AI annoys me too much because they do not stand and fight, I throw their cheese right back at the AI, and I can outcheese the AI.
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TaLaR
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« Reply #490 on: June 16, 2017, 12:28:16 PM »

The very existence of map corners is problematic. They don't make lore-sense and are literally AI corner cases.

But AI could counter that by waiting for you just outside of CR decay radius, thus making stalemate yours to resolve.
Or if they have enough mass to make you tick, put exactly enough ships at max CR decay range to either successfully bait you or win by CR.
There is usually counter-cheese available, as long as one wants to look for it...
They wait outside the radius, until you move just enough for them to decide they can swarm you safely, then you immediately backpedal.  They will get close and fire a few shots, but if your ship is something like a Paragon, they have little chance of breaching your defenses on time, and then they retreat when they see you withdraw back into your corner.  I repeat this as long as my ship has peak performance.  As long as I have more time then them, I win.  It is a slow win, but it is very efficient in terms of resources spent (if you need to deploy all to stand a chance otherwise).

Also, the player can limit the number of ships by lowering battle map size to the minimum of 150.  Unless the enemy sends two cruisers or a capital against your capital, your peak performance cannot tick down because the enemy does not send enough small ships to make your ship tick down.

Actually, if the player lowers battle map size for any reason, he may be forced to solo fleets since 60 DP is only enough for a Paragon and one other 10 DP ship, and that 10 DP wingman will probably die.

If my peak performance expires, I simply full retreat and start over for round two (or three or more) until the enemy is defeated.  The enemy will lose CR for more ships than my one.

Normally, I like to play with max battle size, but if there is superior fleet I cannot beat fairly, and the enemy AI annoys me too much because they do not stand and fight, I throw their cheese right back at the AI, and I can outcheese the AI.

Well AI could wait until you are far enough from corner, until committing to attack. If you have only one Paragon or are similarly outmatched in speed, it is free to choose when to attack and whether to attack all.

As for chain deployment + multi-round combat - yes, these tactics can be unbeatable (or at least unmatched in efficiency) in current iteration. With either corner Capitals or just ton of Afflictors/Hyperions.

Battle-size is kind of different thing, defeating AI by picking options which make it uncompetitive is about the same as selecting easy difficulty...

The thing is - a player-piloted Paragon with character skills can only be defeated under rather specific sets of circumstances (like big swarm of Tempests far from corner/ synced attack by multiple Capitals/ Several Astrals worth of bombers), not by throwing random ships at it in not-overwhelming amounts. If situation doesn't look close to winnable for AI, it makes sense to retreat/not initiate fight.
But that requires pretty much different campaign structure - so that driving enemy away would already be rewarded in some cases.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 12:30:57 PM by TaLaR » Logged
Megas
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« Reply #491 on: June 16, 2017, 01:04:58 PM »

Sure, but the AI will wait an indefinite amount of time for your Paragon or other big ship to poke its head out.  If it will not retreat and leave me alone, then that means forcing a peak performance timer battle if I cannot outfight the incoming swarm.

If the distance from the boundaries is the same for the AI for attacking and withdrawing, it does not matter where it is.  Just find that invisible barrier and freely straddle it at will to toggle AI behavior.

Big swarm of small ships kills Paragon, with or without skills (and this was partially true even before 0.8 ).  I tried soloing 0.8 simulator with max skilled Paragon.  It is impossible.  Once only the frigates are left, they flee and wait until they can swarm en masse, and it is over for the Paragon.  Unlike campaign, retreat and redeploy is not an option in the simulator.  Large enemy ships on the other hand, are too slow and can be kited, outranged, and picked off with quad Tachyon Lances.

Battle map size may be selecting difficulty, but it can be changed mid-game, and I am not above exploiting game-given features to stack the fight in my favor, although I dislike lowering battle map size (less than maximum of 500) and out-stalling the AI unless the AI annoys me so much that I do not care how the AI loses and I win.
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Alex
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« Reply #492 on: June 16, 2017, 01:06:52 PM »

If the distance from the boundaries is the same for the AI for attacking and withdrawing

(It's not.)
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Megas
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« Reply #493 on: June 16, 2017, 01:08:12 PM »

@ Alex:  Yes, I seem to have noticed.
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kerghnox
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« Reply #494 on: June 16, 2017, 03:33:38 PM »

Any chance of making hyperstorms moddable? I know most people like them the way they are, but there's some of us who would like to modify how harsh they are.
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