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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Raiding for Fun and Profit (11/27/19)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.8.1a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 180777 times)

AxleMC131

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #210 on: May 30, 2017, 06:45:40 PM »

Why the odyssey nerfs? 90 speed odyssey was able to kill almost every cruiser sure, but it still lost to other capitals. At best it could beat a conquest or flee from a Paragon.

Because a 90 top speed capital is horribly overpowered.  :-[ That's faster than most destroyers, and equal to some frigates.
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isaacssv552

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #211 on: May 30, 2017, 07:11:05 PM »

Why the odyssey nerfs? 90 speed odyssey was able to kill almost every cruiser sure, but it still lost to other capitals. At best it could beat a conquest or flee from a Paragon.

Because a 90 top speed capital is horribly overpowered.  :-[ That's faster than most destroyers, and equal to some frigates.
Sure, but it also lost to almost every capital, and even a few specialized cruiser builds. Also, I was able to kite a 90 speed odyssey with a Falcon, so it's not insurmountably fast. Being able to choose its engagements was a good tradeoff for losing against any decent capital. 90 speed just meant it could catch the ships it could kill and run from about half the ships that could kill it.

Nerfing the speed to 80 is fine, but the decrease shield power makes it even more fragile. I can already hard-counter the odyssey with an astral for only 5 supplies more, with the lowered shield efficiency/speed I'll probably be able to beat it with a bunch of cruisers that were previously borderline.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #212 on: May 30, 2017, 07:18:02 PM »

Why the odyssey nerfs? 90 speed odyssey was able to kill almost every cruiser sure, but it still lost to other capitals. At best it could beat a conquest or flee from a Paragon.

Because a 90 top speed capital is horribly overpowered.  :-[ That's faster than most destroyers, and equal to some frigates.
That is Aurora today, faster than any destroyer, thanks to fast charging Plasma Jets.  Only a cruiser, and a pricey one, but it is very strong for a non-carrier, better than Dominator or Eagle if played to its strengths.  At least Aurora is no longer a joke.  Still not as good at soloing fleets as Heron with Unstable Injector, two Warthogs, and one Broadsword, let alone Sparks and Lux.  Heron can solo about a 200 DP fleet of ships (Onslaught and various smaller ships) on its own.  The others cannot do as well due to AI's kite-and-swarm tactics (which fighters are too fast and/or too far engagement range to be stymied by).

Nerfing the speed to 80 is fine, but the decrease shield power makes it even more fragile. I can already hard-counter the odyssey with an astral for only 5 supplies more, with the lowered shield efficiency/speed I'll probably be able to beat it with a bunch of cruisers that were previously borderline.
Yes, I am skeptical with the shield nerf.  Also, it is uncharacteristic of high-tech ships, unless Sunder is counted as high-tech.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #213 on: May 30, 2017, 07:22:15 PM »

So why do you have an agar.io-like navigation minigame that you keep elaborating upon update after update?

Because it's not a mini-game, it's part of the actual game. The line between the two is blurry sometimes, but it's not that blurry. If you don't enjoy it, that's certainly your prerogative, but personally I find the navigation-related gameplay, and the various cat-and-mouse things you can do with stealth, to be a lot of fun. It's something I'd like to keep building on and make use of with more and more gameplay/content/design elements. Given that, things that bypass it entirely have to be handled with care, to say the least.


I can talk about the actual costs, though. If anything, the way to fix the skill is to make it cost way more to use. Or perhaps give it a dual functionality. One click to initiate a charge-up timer to jump for a small supply cost, second click to bypass that timer and jump immediately for a substantial cost in supplies/fuel and/or damage to ships. That would preserve its usefulness for both convenience and emergencies. It's still a get-out-of-jail card, just no longer a free one.
I have to say I love this idea and I feel like it would also add options for other skills to use as well

Yeah, I like that idea - could probably work if the cost was high enough that it was comparable to, say, almost losing a battle. Could see something similar for interdiction pulse, too - maybe a skill that unlocks the ability to bypass the chargeup at a high cost. Non-toggle abilities would have to support being usable when already active, though... definitely not a .1 thing. And it might still be something that's worth it at any price if it's at all possible, but still, I like the gist of the idea.


Why the odyssey nerfs? 90 speed odyssey was able to kill almost every cruiser sure, but it still lost to other capitals. At best it could beat a conquest or flee from a Paragon.

The extra 10 speed doesn't really make a difference when the player is piloting it, so it's probably better for it to be on the low end of the effective spectrum. For shields, let's put it this way - it was beating an Onslaught in an AI vs AI fight prior to that adjustment.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 07:57:41 PM by Alex »
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Sordid

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #214 on: May 30, 2017, 08:14:01 PM »

So why do you have an agar.io-like navigation minigame that you keep elaborating upon update after update?

Because it's not a mini-game, it's the actual game. The line between the two is blurry sometimes, but it's not that blurry. If you don't enjoy it, that's certainly your prerogative, but personally I find the navigation-related gameplay, and the various cat-and-mouse things you can do with stealth, to be a lot of fun. It's something I'd like to keep building on and make use of with more and more gameplay/content/design elements. Given that, things that bypass it entirely have to be handled with care, to say the least.

Yeah, you've padded out the minigame to the point where it takes up more time than the actual core gameplay. I don't think that's such a good thing. Not only did you agree with me the last time we talked that the battles are the heart of the game, the overworld map doesn't actually even have any real gameplay. Yeah, you click and hold a mouse button to make your fleet move. That's it, that's the only gameplay there is, and the fleet movement feels horribly laggy and unresponsive due to the inertia (which the mandatory Sustained Burn makes even worse) and skill-induced forced stops. The rest of it is just clicking buttons and menus. That's okay for a turn-based strategy game where you administer a ton of units and settlements, or perhaps for an MMORPG where the lag doesn't allow for actual action gameplay. Neither of which is the case with SS. SS navigation feels like playing a game of Starcraft where you only control one unit and have a 3-second ping to the server. There's no complexity to hold your interest, and the delay makes what action you can get feel deeply unsatisfying. And I'm not sure adding more complexity is going to make it any better. It's just going to put more menus to click through on the way to the fun bit.

I made this exact point last time, and you agreed with it and said that your goal was to make that journey to the fun bit as smooth and painless as possible. And then you went and made it even worse. It pains me to see this great game get buried under all this needless tedium. I can't keep recommending SS to people anymore. I was really looking forward to talking to my friends about how awesome the new update was, but I just couldn't... because it isn't... You made the battles worse by further diminishing the role of the player's ship and you made the map worse by making it even more unresponsive and tedious than it already was. I guess when I get a craving for Starsector I'll have to go back to .7 and imagine what could have been.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 08:31:15 PM by Sordid »
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Embolism

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #215 on: May 30, 2017, 08:46:19 PM »

All games in StarSector's "genre" have a campaign and a combat layer. Personally I can enjoy both and would love to see even more added to the campaign layer.

And I think the campaign layer has more nuance than you give it credit. It obviously isn't just "click to move" otherwise you wouldn't be complaining about how you can't do exactly that because of all these new buttons Alex is adding.

Once actual strategic stuff gets added (outposts, a working economy) these tactical campaign options would become even more important. Remember that StarSector is still being built upon and a lot of current functions (see: Surveying) will make more sense as the game gets closer to completion.
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isaacssv552

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #216 on: May 30, 2017, 08:48:04 PM »

The extra 10 speed doesn't really make a difference when the player is piloting it, so it's probably better for it to be on the low end of the effective spectrum. For shields, let's put it this way - it was beating an Onslaught in an AI vs AI fight prior to that adjustment.
Was this the simulator Onslaught? I don't think it has any forward facing kinetics, the only good option for shield penetration is the TPCs. An Onslaught with a couple Mark IXs, or any other anti-shield weaponry for that matter, does much better.
EDIT: Just did a quick test on a new game, spawning in a standard onsluaght, removing the thumpers, and upgrading two flak cannons to mark IXs. It destroys a 90 speed, 2 fighterbay, +10 OP odyssey with minimal armour damage.
EDIT 2: For some reason the AI Onslaught refuses to use Burn Drive vs. Odyssey. If I take manual control and burn drive whenever the Odyssey tries to retreat and vent the fight goes much faster/better.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 09:03:12 PM by isaacssv552 »
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #217 on: May 31, 2017, 12:27:41 AM »

Yeah, you click and hold a mouse button to make your fleet move. That's it, that's the only gameplay there is, and the fleet movement feels horribly laggy and unresponsive due to the inertia (which the mandatory Sustained Burn makes even worse) and skill-induced forced stops. The rest of it is just clicking buttons and menus.
It depends on your likes. For you, (apparently) all terrain and sensor play is there only to hinder player, whereas for me, it is a source of fun as well, with finding optimal paths through dangerous terrain, luring AI, going dark to avoid detection being entertaining activities. Maybe not as a good, big fight, but better than many. As for inertia, it's not really bad when you're flying normally (in my experience fleets can turn around in 2 seconds, top) while having it increased while using sustained burn is supposed not to give you the ability to force fights with anybody you want, no matter their fleet, as well as being realistic (the faster you go, the more time it takes to change your velocity).
About skills: ASB has a good reason to do so now (it counters IP), but I have to say that I'm not sure if Sustained Burn's isn't a bit too long, while that of planetary scan is most of the time pointless since if you're scanning, it means there's nothing nearby anyway (because how many fleets are there in outer sector? I've been able to survey multiple systems and not encounter any).
And then there are buttons and menus that for some people (like me) are fun. But I think it's not the point, the point is the disparity between managing-focused campaign gameplay and arcade-ish combat... Alex, just make some arcade mode for all min-maxers with all balance nerfs disabled just to allow them to snowball all they want. :P

Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #218 on: May 31, 2017, 05:41:08 AM »

Sure, you could argue that Transverse Jump is accessible too early. Maybe. I'm not sure I would agree. Yeah, sure, you could rush it, but then you'd be compromising your fleet by not having other important skills. And is it really such a bad thing to have it accessible early? If you enjoy playing cat and mouse with other fleets on the map, more power to you. Some of us just want to get to the next fight, though.
In my case, I cannot rely on 0.8 Transverse Jump for that because 42 points is not enough to get all the fighting skills I want plus Navigation (or Surveying).

It depends on your likes. For you, (apparently) all terrain and sensor play is there only to hinder player, whereas for me, it is a source of fun as well, with finding optimal paths through dangerous terrain, luring AI, going dark to avoid detection being entertaining activities.
Hyperspace storms can die for all I care when they slow your fleet to a crawl (without Sustained Burn) and ruin your fleet with bottomless supply drain like they did during 0.7x.  They are a scrappy game mechanic.  I like it that Sustained Burn makes them mostly irrelevant.

P.S.
It destroys a 90 speed, 2 fighterbay, +10 OP odyssey with minimal armour damage.
Does Odyssey have more +5 or +10 OP for the second fighter bay, or does it need to make do with current 0.8 OP?  Patch notes does not mention additional OP for Odyssey.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 05:55:39 AM by Megas »
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FooF

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #219 on: May 31, 2017, 07:41:08 AM »

~Snip~

As always, you're entitled to your opinion and you make valid points. That said, I'm of the opposite persuasion. The core gameplay has not suffered, IMO, and being god-like gets boring. In previous patches, once you get your fleet and/or flagship to a certain level, the game has no challenge anymore unless you handicap yourself. Moreover, the campaign additions give the player reason to fight, which is sometimes just as important as the fighting itself. Traveling to a bounty or other target builds the suspense: if I could just instant travel there the only thing it does is make my time from Level 0 - 40 that much quicker. Not to mention that there are now fleets, derelicts, and other systems that beg for me to check them out along the way. The campaign additions since .8 have added a sense of surprise/discovery to the game that SS has been teasing through lore since the beginning. I'll agree these additions have made constant fighting less achievable but just like in music, you need lows to bring out the highs. If you find campaign travel tedious, I get it (I do too at times), but in light of what it has the potential to do, i.e. gives us exploration, surveying, salvage, etc., I'm more than happy to travel around considering the payoffs in doing the other activities.

I've found combat to be as satisfying as ever because I know I can lose. In the large fleet actions of high-end bounties or faction fleets, even if I'm in a battleship with max skills, there's a difference between knowing you're the strongest guy on the block and knowing you're invincible. By virtue of skills and human intelligence, I know I'm going to have an advantage in the vast majority of encounters but in previous patches, player skill was buried under overpowered skill perks that homogenized every battle. It didn't matter if I was good or terrible, when my flagship has 50+% more OP, Vents, Damage, Armor, Speed and everything else relative to what's against me, I can mash my face into the keyboard and win. I don't find that fun, or at least, not fun for very long. In the current meta game, many of my flagships are pound-for-pound better than what I'm up against (I like SO Hammerhead right now), but without really good positioning or help from my fleet, there's no way I can take on capitals or large carriers. It is because of that limitation I'm finding more enjoyment in having to be very particular with the battles I pick and knowing I can lose if I get in over my head is where the thrill is. As you say, there is no actual parity in the game: the campaign factions will always just spawn another fleet, but I want the illusion of parity. It's far more meaningful to me to  win a fight where I thought it was fair or I was the underdog than to go in as the favorite. After all, why are bosses in other games always so much bigger than the player?
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #220 on: May 31, 2017, 08:25:42 AM »

Sordid

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #221 on: May 31, 2017, 08:53:36 AM »

*snip*

You're right that the various campaign additions enrich the game in a way. They give context to the fighting and sometimes create truly memorable moments. For instance, one time I got a bit too greedy with bounties and ended up short on fuel for the return trip. Fortunately for me a sensor burst revealed a derelict, which happened to be a tanker with 200 fuel in it, just what I needed. That was pretty awesome.

The thing is, derelicts and surveying aren't mandatory. You can just ignore them if you want (which for me is most of the time). Sustained Burn, on the other hand, is mandatory, at least if you want to get anywhere in any kind of reasonable time. And yes, it makes travel quicker, which is good, but it also makes controlling your fleet a lot less responsive and enjoyable (which I suspect is the reason behind its tweaks in .1). That's why I'm complaining about Sustained Burn but not derelicts, because derelicts don't affect me if I don't choose to interact with them. If I decide that grinding the derelict menu is worth my time, that's on me. The trouble with Sustained Burn is that I can't very well decide not to use it, because the map's been designed with it in mind. That'd be like abstaining from fast travel in Oblivion or Skyrim. Yes, you can technically do it, but nobody ever does except as part of an immersion/challenge run (where the challenge is mostly to the player's patience).

Now on to the main point that I found interesting in your post, which is the question of becoming god-like and keeping the game challenging. Firstly I'd like to point out your statement about previous versions posing no challenge to high-level players/fleets doesn't take into account [redacted] [redacted], which don't exist in those versions. That's just a minor point, though. More importantly, I'm not quite sure what the intention is behind SS's leveling system. See, you're right that in general reaching god-like levels of power makes games boring. That's when you retire that character and start over with a different build. And to me it seems that that's the intention behind SS's system given its restrictive level cap and lack of a respec option. You seem to want the game to be playable and challenging indefinitely, and I can see why, it takes a long time to level up your character and assemble a top-tier fleet. I see a contradiction in the design here.

I'd quite like to hear Alex' take on what the intention here is. Is the game supposed to be played repeatedly with different skills, factions, and fleet compositions? In that case giving the players the ability to become god-like with certain broken builds might not be such a bad idea. It's immensely satisfying to reach that point, and once the boredom sets in the player can simply start over with a different build. Finding ever more powerful builds becomes a motivation for replaying the game over and over. If, on the other hand, the idea is to make one character and keep playing them indefinitely, then IMO a respec option would not go amiss. Part of the reason why I stopped playing .8 is that I built my character wrong, and with no respec option correcting those errors would require throwing away all the time, effort, and progress I've invested.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 10:17:24 AM by Sordid »
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #222 on: May 31, 2017, 08:54:54 AM »

Was this the simulator Onslaught? I don't think it has any forward facing kinetics, the only good option for shield penetration is the TPCs. An Onslaught with a couple Mark IXs, or any other anti-shield weaponry for that matter, does much better.
EDIT: Just did a quick test on a new game, spawning in a standard onsluaght, removing the thumpers, and upgrading two flak cannons to mark IXs. It destroys a 90 speed, 2 fighterbay, +10 OP odyssey with minimal armour damage.
EDIT 2: For some reason the AI Onslaught refuses to use Burn Drive vs. Odyssey. If I take manual control and burn drive whenever the Odyssey tries to retreat and vent the fight goes much faster/better.

Fair enough, but still feels the simulator Onslaught should do better against it. In any case, it's still remarkably good. It didn't get any extra OP, btw.

Minor intel GUI issue

I'm sorry if I'm being dense: what's the actual issue?
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #223 on: May 31, 2017, 09:12:11 AM »

I'm sorry if I'm being dense: what's the actual issue?
For whatever the reason, if you click on "inhabited" filter with "not fully surveyed" on, it'll disable the latter. It wouldn't be very jarring, except you can turn the latter on again. "Stars" and survey filters are incompatible and disable each other when the other is selected, but it doesn't work with "inhabited" filter.

PCCL

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Re: Starsector 0.8.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #224 on: May 31, 2017, 09:12:43 AM »

...Sustained Burn, on the other hand, is mandatory, at least if you want to get anywhere in any kind of reasonable time...

strongly disagree here. I have never used sustained burn in any of my playthroughs after the first. And even that I only used it for the tutorial. It all depends on what you consider reasonable, which I suspect is very different between us.
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