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Author Topic: [0.8.1a] Discount Shipyard v0.5.2  (Read 12156 times)
c0nr4d1c4l
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« on: May 19, 2017, 11:59:03 AM »

Welcome to the Discount Shipyard!

Welcome one, welcome all to c0nr4d1c4l's Discount Shipyard! We have it all: from vanilla-friendly ships to the (literally) game-breaking Omega, we have a deal for you! All the ships are found in the nearest participating shipyard or, if you want, you can even test these BE-YOO-TEE-FUL ships in your local simulator centers!

Please, if anyone finds any balancing issues please report them to me and I will attempt to rectify the problem. Fixes made by anybody else would also be welcome. Smiley

Screenshots!






Ships for sale:
Dreadnought:
Capitals:
Cruisers:
Frigates:


What's next:
Add MrDavidoff's Omega class dreadnought ?Shocked
Add the Adventure class battleship
Fix balancing issues
Possibly fix the stock AI problem with the Omega.
Even MORE ships!

Link:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/1hl77ywq1hdygdh/Discount_Ships.zip/file

Changelog:
0.5.2:

Content:

-Added Clipper-class Attack Shuttle
-Added Njord-class Attack Shuttle
-Added Skirmisher-class Gunship
-Added Pathfinder-class Exploration Cruiser
-Added Pike-class Heavy Cruiser
-Added Pike (B)-class Heavy Cruiser
-Added Falchion-class Interceptor Wing
-Added Mace-class Assault Wing

Revisions:

-Revised the mission "At All Costs".
   -Replaced Lashers with Njords and Clippers.
   -Added Skirmishers into the fleet.
-Revised ship variants
   -Parrot Standards wings have been replaced with Falchion wings.
   -Pelican's Warthog wings have been replaced with Mace wings.
-Pelican energy mounts replaced with hybrids.
-Overall balancing.

Older changelogs:

0.5.1:Omega Portion
         Added a new mission showcasing the Omega
         Adjusted fighter bays from 9 to 6
         Removed ITU and Vast Bulk
         Adjusted max flux from 80000 to 45000
         Adjusted flux dissipation from 4000 to 1250
         MAIN PORTION
         Adjusted Minerva's dissipation from 2000 to 900
         Nerfed max flux to 25000
0.5: THIS UPDATE WILL BREAK SAVES!!
       MASSIVE REBAL (too much to list, but if you'd like to know please PM me)
       Revised the Parrot's variant
       Revised the Adventure's variant
       Revised the test mission to accommodate the rebal
       Removed Vanguard-class Destroyer
       Added Minerva-class Heavy Battleship (Mission only, will integrate to campaign later)
0.4.1: Quick Rebal
      Removed remaining Omega references from main folder.
0.4:Added mission: Test Drive
     Added Pioneer-class Cruiser
     Revised Vanguard variants
     Changed Eden's CRUISER classification to CAPITAL_SHIP
     Removed the Omega-class from the main folder
     Provided Omega standalone folder
0.3:Changed the name!
      Added four new ships:
          Adventure-class Battleship
          Typhoon-class Frigate
          Eden-class HabShip
          Vanguard-class Destroyer
     Even more balancing stuff
     Fixed the deployment cost from previous versions
0.2: Fix balancing issues
      Add the Omega-class dreadnought
0.1: Initial release

Sprites by:
medikohl
MrDavidoff
xenoargh
intothewildblueyonder
FlashFrozen
HELMUT
billi999

Permissions were granted prior to using the assets (or taken from the dump)

Thanks to:
AxleMC131 for helping round out some things out
Zenobious for playtesting and balancing
Takion Kasukedo for playtesting, balancing, and variant suggestions

AND PLEASE LEAVE FEEDBACK AND REPORT ANY BUGS! Thanks! Smiley
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 07:28:06 AM by c0nr4d1c4l » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2017, 01:46:08 PM »

I mean I know that its not your sprite but, the middle of the ship is very weird.
It catches my eye but not in a good way. Its so repetitive and tiny that it hurts my eyes... *No Offence*
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c0nr4d1c4l
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2017, 02:45:14 PM »

I mean I know that its not your sprite but, the middle of the ship is very weird.
It catches my eye but not in a good way. Its so repetitive and tiny that it hurts my eyes... *No Offence*


None taken!

I agree with you there, I would change it if I could but sadly I'm no 'basher  Sad
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2017, 09:10:24 PM »

First and most importantly, this thing is worth WAY more than 30 supplies for deployment. 30 is an Aurora! This is worth 40 at least, and arguably 45 or more. Even under AI control, this ship will immediately dumpster an Odyssey or Conquest, and most variants of the Onslaught too.

OP are quite a bit too low. Per the modding guidelines thread, it should be 20 per large, 10 per medium, 5 per small, and 10 per fighter bay, plus filling 50% of vents/capacitors. On this ship, that adds up to 335 OP, while it currently has 300. It's pretty awkward to fit even a standard loadout on it right now, much less one with any useful hull-mods. Note that the Conquest has fewer mounts and a hull-mod that reduces the cost of Large Ballistics by 10, but still has 315 OP.

Skeleton crew numbers (300) are probably too low, compared to other ships of its size and their relative number of weapons mounts and fighter bays. It should probably be closer to that of an Onslaught (500) or at least a Conquest (400). CR loss per deployment is possibly a bit too low, and CR recovery a bit too high. Compare with other low/mid-tech capitals and cruisers. I'm not sure exactly where you intend this to fit on the technology scale, which would affect final numbers.

Some of the turret firing arcs are too generous, while others are too small. Specifically, the front 3 medium turrets and 2 of the front smalls are fixed and cannot traverse at all. Assuming that was intentional and not an oversight, it is typical to provide fixed hardpoints with at least some traverse -- this applies to the side large missile mounts as well. See the Dominator for an example of what hardpoint mounts, both ballistic and missile, should have for firing arcs.

Many of the other mounts have very large firing arcs which overlap the hull too much. Take a look at the arcs of the turrets on the Conquest and Onslaught -- even when on the corners of the hull, very few turrets have even an 180 degree arc, and many are far less. Here's a pretty quick example i cooked up in paint of more reasonable arcs, which maintains the spirit of your layout without being near so generous:


As for overall balance, that's a bit more problematic. In general I think the flux, armor, speed and shield stats are all pretty good. Burn Drive is an appropriate, albeit somewhat boringly conventional, ship system for a battlecruiser. Even with the small number of OP it has, it's still quite effective, although I ended up leaving the less useful no-traverse forward turrets empty to free up OP for other things. The fundamental problem with balancing this ship is that anything with 4 Large Ballistic with overlapping arcs of fire *and* 4 Large Missile has overwhelming firepower even with mediocre flux stats and very limited ability to armor/hull tank.

The obvious armament that presents itself when provided 4 Large Missile in fixed off-axis mounts is 2 Squalls and 2 MIRVs, and this setup by itself is just about enough to win capital engagements while the ammo holds out -- and extended missile racks can make that a pretty long time. Add in 4 overlapping Large Ballistics, and 2 fighter bays as well, and it's extremely hard to stop this thing from just wading in and crushing anything with relentless barrages of missiles and shells. This is why I think a deployment cost of 45 or more wouldn't be unwarranted, depending on what (if any) changes you end up making.

An obvious suggestion that can be done is to make the rearmost Large Ballistic face backwards, while leaving the other 3 with only a 90-degree arc -- centered forward for the other aft turret, and to diagonal angles outward of maybe 30 degrees on the front two (this would have the added benefit of stopping the two forward Large Ballistic mounts from overlapping their sprites when traversed to the side). Removing 1/4 of the heavy ballistic firepower and restricting that of the others to a lower area of overlap would help its balance somewhat and requires no sprite changes. Another suggestion for an easy "soft" nerf would be to equip the fighter bays with a fixed loadout of less-effective wings. More drastically, the missile mounts could be changed to mediums, or turned into built-in weapons with something not particularly effective, like Locust launchers.

On a more more trivial note, I'm not particularly fond of the Core autofit provided -- Storm needlers are a substantial OP investment and flux-hogs to boot, so on a ship of these stats they're a poor match. And no DTC or ITU on a capital is unthinkable. Here's the loadout I used to test it a bit:


In case it isn't clear, that's 2x Mark IX, 2x Hellbores, 2x Squall, 2x MIRV, 2x Flaks, Vulcans in all the small mounts, a Warthog wing and a Broadsword. No exceptionally good weapons or fighter wings, and a DTC instead of ITU to try and represent a cheap and simple "standard" build. I left the forward mediums and smalls empty to save OP -- if it had 335 or more, and they had larger firing arcs, I'd fit them with a pair of Vulcans, a Flak and Maulers or Heavy Autocannon. If the aft turret faced rearwards, I'd fit it with a Devastator or Hephaestus.

One final question is where you see this ship fitting in, lore-wise. Is it supposed to be a low-tech battlecruiser, as the engine color suggests? A mid-tech alternative to the Conquest? A cobbled-together pirate ship, or a carefully crafted cutting edge design? One thing that could be done to vary it up and give it a bit more character and variety would be to make some of the small or medium mounts energy weapons, as on the Conquest. But a lot of decisions like that depend on your vision for what this ship is, and where it came from.

I had a lot of fun playing around with this thing tonight, and I'm excited to see where you take the design and what else you have to add!  Smiley
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c0nr4d1c4l
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2017, 09:31:43 PM »

First and most importantly, this thing is worth WAY more than 30 supplies for deployment. 30 is an Aurora! This is worth 40 at least, and arguably 45 or more. Even under AI control, this ship will immediately dumpster an Odyssey or Conquest, and most variants of the Onslaught too.

OP are quite a bit too low. Per the modding guidelines thread, it should be 20 per large, 10 per medium, 5 per small, and 10 per fighter bay, plus filling 50% of vents/capacitors. On this ship, that adds up to 335 OP, while it currently has 300. It's pretty awkward to fit even a standard loadout on it right now, much less one with any useful hull-mods. Note that the Conquest has fewer mounts and a hull-mod that reduces the cost of Large Ballistics by 10, but still has 315 OP.

Skeleton crew numbers (300) are probably too low, compared to other ships of its size and their relative number of weapons mounts and fighter bays. It should probably be closer to that of an Onslaught (500) or at least a Conquest (400). CR loss per deployment is possibly a bit too low, and CR recovery a bit too high. Compare with other low/mid-tech capitals and cruisers. I'm not sure exactly where you intend this to fit on the technology scale, which would affect final numbers.

Some of the turret firing arcs are too generous, while others are too small. Specifically, the front 3 medium turrets and 2 of the front smalls are fixed and cannot traverse at all. Assuming that was intentional and not an oversight, it is typical to provide fixed hardpoints with at least some traverse -- this applies to the side large missile mounts as well. See the Dominator for an example of what hardpoint mounts, both ballistic and missile, should have for firing arcs.

Many of the other mounts have very large firing arcs which overlap the hull too much. Take a look at the arcs of the turrets on the Conquest and Onslaught -- even when on the corners of the hull, very few turrets have even an 180 degree arc, and many are far less. Here's a pretty quick example i cooked up in paint of more reasonable arcs, which maintains the spirit of your layout without being near so generous:


As for overall balance, that's a bit more problematic. In general I think the flux, armor, speed and shield stats are all pretty good. Burn Drive is an appropriate, albeit somewhat boringly conventional, ship system for a battlecruiser. Even with the small number of OP it has, it's still quite effective, although I ended up leaving the less useful no-traverse forward turrets empty to free up OP for other things. The fundamental problem with balancing this ship is that anything with 4 Large Ballistic with overlapping arcs of fire *and* 4 Large Missile has overwhelming firepower even with mediocre flux stats and very limited ability to armor/hull tank.

The obvious armament that presents itself when provided 4 Large Missile in fixed off-axis mounts is 2 Squalls and 2 MIRVs, and this setup by itself is just about enough to win capital engagements while the ammo holds out -- and extended missile racks can make that a pretty long time. Add in 4 overlapping Large Ballistics, and 2 fighter bays as well, and it's extremely hard to stop this thing from just wading in and crushing anything with relentless barrages of missiles and shells. This is why I think a deployment cost of 45 or more wouldn't be unwarranted, depending on what (if any) changes you end up making.

An obvious suggestion that can be done is to make the rearmost Large Ballistic face backwards, while leaving the other 3 with only a 90-degree arc -- centered forward for the other aft turret, and to diagonal angles outward of maybe 30 degrees on the front two (this would have the added benefit of stopping the two forward Large Ballistic mounts from overlapping their sprites when traversed to the side). Removing 1/4 of the heavy ballistic firepower and restricting that of the others to a lower area of overlap would help its balance somewhat and requires no sprite changes. Another suggestion for an easy "soft" nerf would be to equip the fighter bays with a fixed loadout of less-effective wings. More drastically, the missile mounts could be changed to mediums, or turned into built-in weapons with something not particularly effective, like Locust launchers.

On a more more trivial note, I'm not particularly fond of the Core autofit provided -- Storm needlers are a substantial OP investment and flux-hogs to boot, so on a ship of these stats they're a poor match. And no DTC or ITU on a capital is unthinkable. Here's the loadout I used to test it a bit:


In case it isn't clear, that's 2x Mark IX, 2x Hellbores, 2x Squall, 2x MIRV, 2x Flaks, Vulcans in all the small mounts, a Warthog wing and a Broadsword. No exceptionally good weapons or fighter wings, and a DTC instead of ITU to try and represent a cheap and simple "standard" build. I left the forward mediums and smalls empty to save OP -- if it had 335 or more, and they had larger firing arcs, I'd fit them with a pair of Vulcans, a Flak and Maulers or Heavy Autocannon. If the aft turret faced rearwards, I'd fit it with a Devastator or Hephaestus.

One final question is where you see this ship fitting in, lore-wise. Is it supposed to be a low-tech battlecruiser, as the engine color suggests? A mid-tech alternative to the Conquest? A cobbled-together pirate ship, or a carefully crafted cutting edge design? One thing that could be done to vary it up and give it a bit more character and variety would be to make some of the small or medium mounts energy weapons, as on the Conquest. But a lot of decisions like that depend on your vision for what this ship is, and where it came from.

I had a lot of fun playing around with this thing tonight, and I'm excited to see where you take the design and what else you have to add!  Smiley

Thanks for the feedback! I'll be headed to my lair to make sure the balancing issues get straightened out.

As for the lore, I saw this ship as the predecessor to the Conquest possibly constructed at the end of the Core Epoch (Old lore, I know) right before technology allowed the creation of midline ships. This may have been seen working along with Onslaughts and Legions in the Domain's massive armadas.

Also
The next release will have the Omega class dreadnought!
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 09:36:11 PM by c0nr4d1c4l » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2017, 03:49:25 AM »

What's the main theme of those ships and what'll be the name of this mod?
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« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2017, 05:42:35 PM »

What's the main theme of those ships and what'll be the name of this mod?

Just a collection of ships that I wanted to see back in the game. With the creative name of "Just another ship pack"  Tongue
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« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2017, 08:08:53 PM »

The Omega should have the targeting supercomputer considering how stupidly massive it is.
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« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2017, 08:17:01 PM »

Oh my... The size of that thing... You're a madman. XD

(Just warning you btw, that thing is gonna play havoc with the stock AI. It doesn't like massive ships so be prepared for trouble.... Heh.)
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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2017, 08:21:49 PM »

Oh my... The size of that thing... You're a madman. XD

(Just warning you btw, that thing is gonna play havoc with the stock AI. It doesn't like massive ships so be prepared for trouble.... Heh.)

Yeah... just tried the Titan from El's mod with the Omega. The game died. XD

Yep. Does not like big ships. Well...back to the lair.
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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2017, 05:31:57 AM »

Or just downsize it (it would mean removal of some "features") so it doesn't play total havoc.

That being said, the Ophi was in the game of the Oculians so...
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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2017, 07:13:22 PM »

Oh my... The size of that thing... You're a madman. XD

(Just warning you btw, that thing is gonna play havoc with the stock AI. It doesn't like massive ships so be prepared for trouble.... Heh.)

Yeah... just tried the Titan from El's mod with the Omega. The game died. XD

Yep. Does not like big ships. Well...back to the lair.

Did you have a winner?
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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2017, 08:31:32 PM »


Did you have a winner?

Definitely Ophi...

Once that was deployed all hell broke loose and the Omega got rekt (though it took a while due a MASSIVE fps drop: running at an incredible rate of 5 fps!)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 08:33:35 PM by c0nr4d1c4l » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2017, 09:35:38 PM »

New update is up! Finally added the Adventure-class (thanks to FlashFrozen's permission) and three more ships.
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« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2017, 10:26:54 PM »

Whats the issue with the Omega?
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