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Author Topic: A way to move D-hulls around with less fuel  (Read 2920 times)

Gothars

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A way to move D-hulls around with less fuel
« on: May 19, 2017, 07:54:13 AM »

The problem:
And yeah, fuel cost of "garbage ball" fleets (as they're affectionately known internally) are definitely at odds with the rest of industry encouraging exploration, which did come up in testing as well, but no obvious/clean solution presented itself.

A possible solution; it needs two components to work:

1) The hullmod "Monofilament tow cable"*, equippable on all ships. It enables to tow one mothballed ship of the same size or smaller than the towing ship (or maybe one size bigger?). Towed ships do not consume fuel in hyperspace. As a secondary effect a fleet can emergency burn even with a mothballed ship, when that ship is towed.
The hullmod could increase fuel consumption a bit, but I'm not sure if that would even be necessary balance-wise.


2) A skill in the Industry aptitude that enables to restore mothballed ships with some of their CR. Maybe half of what they had before mothballing, but at least 40% (as long as the ship didn't have below 40%).


The hullmod and skill in combination would allow you to move a fleet for basically half the fuel cost (or less, when smaller ships can tow bigger ones), provided half of the ship tow, and half are towed. Then, when you got where you wanted, you restore the mothballed ships to re-acquire your full combat potential. Raising the CR again would of course cost many supplies, so you trade savings in fuel for restoration supply costs and intermittent vulnerability. Here D-hulls have an advantage, because it's much cheaper to restore them to full combat readiness.

That does not just enable to make far journeys with d-hull garbage fleets. It also opens other possibilities, like having a mothballed toolbox of highly specialized ships that you can restore when needed and carry around for cheap ( they don't cost fuel and don't cost maintenance supply, after all). Or as a new option when you're stranded with low fuel in a remote system. As a nice side effect it gives more use for transports/liners, since you have to carry the crew for the mothballed ships somehow.

There are some ships were the tow cable might make for a nice build-in mod, like the Hound (sled dog!), the Venture and maybe even the tug (with then has a double function).


BTW, something that would be good regardless of if these ideas get implemented is an additional piece of information when hovering over the "mothball" button: "Restoring current CR after mothballing this ship will approximately cost x supplies". At the moment there is no warning at all that mothballing is costly.


*
Spoiler
From what I understand 8.1 will replace the tug's mono-filament tow cable with a "drive field stabilizer" that raises the entire fleets burn speed by 1, and the tow cable will not have any use.
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« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 08:29:17 AM by Gothars »
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nomadic_leader

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Re: A way to move D-hulls around with less fuel
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2017, 09:22:57 AM »

Maybe this isn't a problem, and it doesn't need a solution. There should be a limit on new plays vacuuming up derelicts in outer systems. Salvage is a pinata. Why make it more of a pinata?

The tug thing doesn't work from a realism standpoint or a fun/balance. I want to play a game about spaceships that follows some internally consistent rules, not just prints new rules like Zim Dollars  to achieve some kind of effortless gameplay. The only way it makes sense (realism wise or balance wise) for mothballed ships to use less fuel is if mothballing severely limits their burn speed and disables sustained/emergency burn. And you can do that without tugs.

But Consider:
1. We already have distress calls.
2. We already have the nav skill that decreases fleet fuel usage
3. In the core worlds it's not far to any fuel supply

Another thing that could be added is a hullmod/skill/ship/whatever that lets players produce fuel from certain ingredients and terrain.

I had 2 tiny ships and I found an astral at the edge of the sector. But I didn't have fuel. So I went back to the core, got my tanker from storage, and went on a retrieval mission. In fact, it was a lot of fun. I'm glad the game doesn't just give me free ships without effort. True, on the way back there was a misunderstanding over a distress call with pirates (with whom I am friendly) since I had my transponder off, and I lost the astral. But never mind that, because I found a Valkyrie as well! so next time I'll be able to bring enough blood slaves from pods crew for whatever capital ship I'm retrieving.

Garbage ball players just need to stockpile strategic reserves of supplies and fuel.
Here's what you do: make a market or abandoned station your 'base' and stockpile fuel and supplies from salvage there, until you have enough. If you take out 2-3 frigates in hyperspace core systems, it's not hard to salvage tonnes of that stuff from all the fighting going on around the core systems. (and especially if you have skills to improve salvage/reduce supplies/fuel)

Just don't expand faster than you ought by vacuuming up derelicts you can't really support.
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Alex

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Re: A way to move D-hulls around with less fuel
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2017, 09:36:58 AM »

Made a note re: mothball tooltip, that would be very handy information indeed.

I don't think "mothballed ships that have no maintenance/movement cost you can restore for free situationally" would actually be good - it'd encourage keeping around something for every occasion, and there'd be some micromanagement to keep all that ticking along optimally.


On a related note, since the fuel cost for garbage ball fleets is indeed a concern: one of the changes in .1 is that Recovery Operations 3 will increase fuel salvage by 50% (instead of a general +10% to salvage).
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nomadic_leader

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Re: A way to move D-hulls around with less fuel
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2017, 11:25:14 AM »

Yea, that's is a better way to do it if you think it's really a problem.

However, I see the ideal "challenge arc" for starsector as this:

Early game: Survival
Mid game: Having a fleet good enough to win large battles
End game: Logistics management to supply your super armadas and ensure continued supremacy. Meeting fuel/supply/ship/crew needs for sustaining your armada is the only credible challenge the game can present to super powerful players; take care not to eliminate it.

I anticipate this would consist of strategic control over the stations and planets necessary to produce these needed resources, or to produce commodities that can be traded for them with other planets. Having a super armada and fighting people shouldn't be profitable itself; it's just an expensive tool you use to deter or destroy people who threaten your profit producing planets.

Players who just want the entire arc of the game only to be about self-sustaining combat are missing something, in my opinion.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: A way to move D-hulls around with less fuel
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2017, 12:15:39 PM »

2) A skill in the Industry aptitude that enables to restore mothballed ships with some of their CR. Maybe half of what they had before mothballing, but at least 40% (as long as the ship didn't have below 40%).

So D-grade fleets pay a micromanagement tax? That's horrible.
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Gothars

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Re: A way to move D-hulls around with less fuel
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2017, 01:10:22 PM »

I don't think "mothballed ships that have no maintenance/movement cost you can restore for free situationally" would actually be good - it'd encourage keeping around something for every occasion, and there'd be some micromanagement to keep all that ticking along optimally.

Yeah, admittedly. What can I say, the process of transforming a fleet from travel into combat status sound's real fun to me, even if micro is involved. But then again, I have a thing for power-scalability.
Well, the fuel scavenge skill is a much simpler solution :)

I'd still like a way to burn drive with mothballed/low CR ships btw. Now that it is important again with 8.1, being unable to burn drive can be a pretty big disadvantage.

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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.