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Author Topic: Why is my fleet full of cowards?  (Read 20847 times)

ConstantA

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2017, 11:42:39 AM »

Passive AI sure make things a lot less fun. It's ok when your ships are cautious and don't overextend, but they remain passive and even retreat while the enemy flameouts or overloads (or both). Orders (full assault included) don't help.
Enemy fleets also suffer from cowardice - it's been dozens of times when my severely outclassed fleet was able to win, due to enemy ships being docile, maintaining distance and not attacking. Have they attacked all at once, my fleet would've been wiped in seconds.

I don't have any videos at hand, but here's a couple of episodes from and excellent LP by Nemonaemo, which illustrate the problem beautifully:
https://youtu.be/suyDedg1gBw?t=32m23s
https://youtu.be/suyDedg1gBw?t=36m12s
AFAIK none of his ships had officers
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 11:44:45 AM by ConstantA »
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Alex

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2017, 11:59:33 AM »

Hmm - that's not actually a very good example, because it's taking place next to a map border, and ships generally try to avoid that, so what we're seeing there aren't their "normal" behaviors.

Passive AI sure make things a lot less fun. It's ok when your ships are cautious and don't overextend, but they remain passive and even retreat while the enemy flameouts or overloads (or both). Orders (full assault included) don't help.

I'd love to see specific examples! It's tough to say one way or another w/o seeing something in action; there could be a legitimate reason to hang back. And, as much as I can understand being frustrated when an AI ally occasionally refuses to help in just the right way, it's *way* more frustrating when their behavior causes you to lose ships, especially off-screen. So, even if ships minimizing risks can carry with it some downsides, I think it's a very worthwhile trade-off.

I will say that "full assault" and "eliminate" absolutely *do* make a huge difference - it's possible that there are some cases where they don't result in desired behavior, but I think that's quite different from "don't help", which implies they don't do anything. In my experience, they work quite well - especially Eliminate, which I tend to use a lot - though of course bugs are possible, and perhaps there are situations where it doesn't work as it should.
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ConstantA

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2017, 12:40:00 PM »

Hmm - that's not actually a very good example, because it's taking place next to a map border, and ships generally try to avoid that, so what we're seeing there aren't their "normal" behaviors.
I think in that case the priorities are off. "Kill that SOB now" should be higher in priority list than "Avoid map borders". In my experience as a crappy dev, "working as intended" never helped to calm an annoyed end-user  :)

I will say that "full assault" and "eliminate" absolutely *do* make a huge difference - it's possible that there are some cases where they don't result in desired behavior...
Ok, I'm not so sure about orders, I can be biased, but without them ships are a lot more docile and it sometime hurts more than it helps - they bleed CR, missiles etc.
As I said, AI fleets that severely overpowered mine were beaten by a simple Defend order - both fleets maintained cohesion, indecisively poking at each other while I was able to maneuver and do some damage to tip the balance in my favour. If they attacked head on (as they did in previous versions), they would've suffered some losses, but wiped the floor with my fleet. Instead they tried to "play smart" and failed.

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Alex

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2017, 01:15:54 PM »

I think in that case the priorities are off. "Kill that SOB now" should be higher in priority list than "Avoid map borders". In my experience as a crappy dev, "working as intended" never helped to calm an annoyed end-user  :)

Less "working as intended" and more "not a good example of stated issue due to other issues being in play" :) I mean, behavior around map borders is certainly a valid thing to point out, but isn't exactly a core factor in an "overall AI aggressiveness" discussion.


As I said, AI fleets that severely overpowered mine were beaten by a simple Defend order - both fleets maintained cohesion, indecisively poking at each other while I was able to maneuver and do some damage to tip the balance in my favour. If they attacked head on (as they did in previous versions), they would've suffered some losses, but wiped the floor with my fleet. Instead they tried to "play smart" and failed.

On general principles, this sounds good to me - increased player impact and all that. That part actually is working as intended :) I also kind of suspect they might not really wipe the floor with you in the previous version - a lot of the extra "aggressiveness" in that release was intermittent and due to bugs, rather than an actual coordinated effort.

The AI also *should* order a full assault under some conditions, so unless the battle is more balanced, they ought to try to rush you own after some time. I'd love to take a look at a specific example if you've still got a savefile handy!
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PCCL

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2017, 01:26:47 PM »

I mean, behavior around map borders is certainly a valid thing to point out, but isn't exactly a core factor in an "overall AI aggressiveness" discussion.

I wonder if it is. In my experience, a lot of perceived "cowardice" from my captains are from destroyers chasing frigates into the map edge and being unwilling to crush them against it
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mmm.... tartiflette

Alex

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2017, 01:33:55 PM »

I wonder if it is. In my experience, a lot of perceived "cowardice" from my captains are from destroyers chasing frigates into the map edge and being unwilling to crush them against it

Thing is, that's in a mop-up situation and so a lot less important than "proper" mid-map engagements. Perhaps it's fair to say that it's a significant contributor to "perceived cowardice", but that's not an aspect of it that I'm super concerned with, if that makes sense, and I think it's important to distinguish between when the behaviors happen.
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Thaago

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2017, 01:36:08 PM »

I mean, behavior around map borders is certainly a valid thing to point out, but isn't exactly a core factor in an "overall AI aggressiveness" discussion.

I wonder if it is. In my experience, a lot of perceived "cowardice" from my captains are from destroyers chasing frigates into the map edge and being unwilling to crush them against it

This brings up something weird I've been seeing recently: it seems that ships already on the map edge are able to penetrate farther than ships chasing them?
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nathanebht

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2017, 04:47:48 AM »

One odd thing is that at the start of a battle, all my ships will turn on shields even though no enemy is in range. I can see the frigates in front turning on shields but the cruisers in back? After battle starts then they all start using common sense with shields.

Its so difficult to find aggressive officers in my current game. Steady officers on my carriers perform ok but I typically only need 1 or 2 of them.
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