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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Why is my fleet full of cowards?  (Read 20755 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Friend, would you like to know which of your officers were cowards?
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2017, 07:58:10 PM »

Hey Alex, I just want to let you know that not EVERYBODY dislikes the new AI.  I haven't had time to sit down and really write a bunch of feedback, but I love the "cowardly" AI.

Yep, if anything it's not cowardly enough. For example, it seems that any ship that is not cautious/timid is willing to engage enemy Paragon 1 vs 1 (which is a form of suicide), unless you explicitly order Avoid.
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Histidine

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2017, 08:37:40 PM »

Eliminate order is too tasty, like a bag of candy or chips. I've had several instances of, like:

"Kill that guy there"
"Now kill that guy over there"
"Now that one there"
...
[a while later, when I need to issue new orders]
"What do you mean I'm out of CP?"


My main problem with the AI (aside from carriers being either too shy or too aggressive) comes from running a cruiser-heavy fleet. All too often, one of the cruisers runs off to the side chasing 1-2 frigates up and down the map while my main force gets overwhelmed.
Leaving Control orders on captured objectives is a common cause of the problem, but it seems to happen even without objectives. Perhaps ships should not try to chase enemies significantly faster than them, unless the enemy is retreating.

(Or maybe "Use the Defend order you noob!")
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TaLaR

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2017, 09:00:30 PM »

(Or maybe "Use the Defend order you noob!")

Nah, it makes them too attached to particular position, which hampers their efficiency a lot (a sidenote: any standing orders like defend/control/capture conflict with avoid). If there was an order like "maintain group cohesion" that might be useful.
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Recklessimpulse

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2017, 09:28:32 PM »

Cool well that is one theory debunked.
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PCCL

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2017, 09:34:07 PM »

(a sidenote: any standing orders like defend/control/capture conflict with avoid).

not what I've found. I use avoid tag along with defend point right in front of an enemy ship as a mono-direction harass order all the time, works pretty well for me
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mmm.... tartiflette

TaLaR

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2017, 09:54:36 PM »

(a sidenote: any standing orders like defend/control/capture conflict with avoid).
not what I've found. I use avoid tag along with defend point right in front of an enemy ship as a mono-direction harass order all the time, works pretty well for me

Ships do follow avoid order to some extent, but eventually (as I assume) once they are as far as leash to objective allows they get stuck in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan%27s_ass like behavior. And get stomped by avoided Onslaught/Paragon.

Or at least that's what it looks like to me.
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Morbo513

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Re: Friend, would you like to know which of your officers were cowards?
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2017, 10:58:40 PM »

Hey Alex, I just want to let you know that not EVERYBODY dislikes the new AI.  I haven't had time to sit down and really write a bunch of feedback, but I love the "cowardly" AI.  I have not had ONE SINGLE TIME in my latest campaign where I felt the AI suicided my ships.  They (correctly in my opinion) act like I'm the leader who's supposed to be deciding where and when the lines of battle meet.  I have no compunction whatsoever about letting the AI fly my only Tempest or Hyperion because they simply WILL NOT suicide it.  Maybe they won't kill as many enemies per minute as I would, but I don't really care about that.  My fleet has a limited number of ships, the enemies are not limited.  The primary job of my officers is not to "match my DPS against enemy fleet", it is "fly my ships without getting them killed".  Even a 5% chance that putting whichever precious irreplaceable ship into combat means it will get killed because an AI captain flew my Tempest up a Dominator's exhaust port is unacceptable, and I'm willing to accept my AI captains being cowards 80% of the time to avoid that 5%.  I'd rather the fight take an extra five minutes because I have to do most of the killing myself than reload the game and replay the battle because my Cautious Condor thought it could provide supporting fire from in between two enemy Enforcers.  As far as I'm concerned, the AI on StarSector is done, complete, ready for 1.0.  They play like people who give a damn if they live or die, not like disposable NPCs in a video game.

I know I'm in the minority here, so for the 90% or more of the community who disagrees with me, let me point out another strategy I haven't seen brought up.  Full Assault, Eliminate, and Engage are all well and good, but I hardly use them.  What I use to get my AIs to actually fight is "Escort".  Telling a Heron or Dominator (or everybody in my fleet) to Escort my Medusa means that they will try to fight whatever I'm fighting.  Or tell a couple of Cautious officers to escort an Aggressive officer and they will try to keep distance, but still engage whoever's battling the leader.
Agreed on all - though personally, I make great use of Eliminate and Full Assault. I only use the escort command to keep the faster ships cohesive with the heavier ones, up til the two fleets meet - then, if it's in my favour, I'll order a full assault, or rescind the escort orders and order eliminate on those protecting their key ships, or targets of opportunity that've separated themselves. Full assault's also useful for having your fleet dynamically hit those targets of opportunity within an enemy formation to make some early gains, and you can rescind the order if you feel they're overextending.

I love the way the AI works right now, both enemy and friendly - it requires you to read the situation, then effect decisive action with the available commands and your own ship as opportunities present themselves. I will say though, I still kinda hate the Command Points system - the situation can change drastically and rapidly, and not being able to order your ships to respond to those changes effectively because you say, set up escorts at the beginning is frustrating.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 11:00:41 PM by Morbo513 »
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DIEHARD25

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2017, 12:32:51 AM »

I'm usually used 2 Frigates per Destroyer or Carrier, 4 - per Cruiser. Just Escorting more bigger ship. As for Carrier, there is very effective usage of Defend Point - they don't rick a lot, and fighters have a pretty near replacement base.

Usually single Hammerhead and Wolf with Lasher. Pretty hard combo, good with anti-missile and anti-fighters tasks. Frigates equipped with 4-types of missiles - Hammer or Reaper torpedo, Swarmer anti-fighter missiles (to get enemy AMS systems busy), Harpoon (for frigates) and Salamander (to displace enemy ship and get a point to launch torpedo).

Mostly first skill i pick up additional command points. Besides, i'll rather will buy than unlock a Command center hullmod for flagship. And also placing flagship to Carrier is very nice option for .8a RC 19 - skilling up in Leadership and you'll get a pretty evil fighters from Carrier.

AI is almost perfect. I'd rather would like to have an option to select my Officers behaviour from tactical view - that would be very nice option.
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Snrasha

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2017, 04:52:07 AM »

My fleet have always be coward, so I have just buy carrier or gryphon!
I see always when I fight, my fleet around of the map on group, never separate, never between two ennemis. So, I loose very not many ships with that.

For me, i prefer a AI coward of lose ship where I need to re-approach my strategy and keep to go on the fleet ennemi than a stupid AI who do not value the ship than you have give him.
The only ship than I have lose in a game, this is my ship, for say. And each coward of my fleet have kill more ships than me.(except on pursuit, because they are too slow)
I can understand on early game, but on end-game, you love this coward!
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I am pretty bad on english. So, sorry in advance.

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Add battle options on Com Relay/ Framework for modders for add their own bounty.

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kobeathris

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2017, 06:38:38 AM »

I would really like some formation orders to be honest. I find that if I tell several ships to escort my flagship, it often ends up as a ball, frequently with a fast frigate in the front. What I would prefer is a line with fast ships on the flank, not taking or obstructing fire.
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tchan

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2017, 10:15:11 AM »

Would be sweet to see formations in the game.  But then, not sure how it would affect 2d overhead combat.
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A.Winge

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2017, 11:22:26 AM »

I've mainly noticed the 'coward' problem with ships that do not have an officer.  It seems that a non-officer ship defaults to Cautious.  IMO, combat ships should default to Steady, carrier ships and combat freighters should default to Cautious, and non-combat ships should default to Timid behavior.
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TaLaR

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2017, 12:44:40 PM »

I've mainly noticed the 'coward' problem with ships that do not have an officer.  It seems that a non-officer ship defaults to Cautious.  IMO, combat ships should default to Steady, carrier ships and combat freighters should default to Cautious, and non-combat ships should default to Timid behavior.

Or Alex could just give us 'stance' control per ship (instead of it being fixed per officer)...
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 12:48:52 PM by TaLaR »
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Alex

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2017, 12:49:53 PM »

Non-officer ships default to steady. (Confirmation bias strikes again!)

Or Alex could just give us 'stance' control already...

Deeefinitely not. Or rather: "full assault", "eliminate", and "avoid" are as far as I'd like that to go.


@Network Pesci: thank you! It's great to hear that it's working out from that perspective, which is indeed the main goal.
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SCC

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Re: Why is my fleet full of cowards?
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2017, 12:54:06 PM »

@Alex can you make ships 2 sizes smaller avoid fight with bigger fish and rather assist other ships, focusing on survival mostly? I've stopped using frigates altogether (even Tempests) after they've been dying repeatedly due to I don't even know what, it angered me greatly. Then again, perhaps frigates aren't supposed to fight in capital fights at all and I realised this too late.
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