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Author Topic: Wolf Class frigates are just anoying to fight  (Read 11910 times)

Alex

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Re: Wolf Class frigates are just anoying to fight
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2017, 12:24:05 PM »

FWIW: I replaced the pirate Wolf's phase skimmer with a "degraded" version a couple of days ago - which should hopefully make it more manageable during the portion of the game where said counters are harder to acquire.
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Deshara

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Re: Wolf Class frigates are just anoying to fight
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2017, 01:47:33 PM »

My problem: wolves are one of, what, two frigates with a medium mount, and also one of the most mobile, and also one of the only energy frigates.
Too many niches for me, and too much making it an uncatchable kite-machine. If it were slow and had to use its skimmer to make up for it I wouldn't mind it as a high-tech support frigate, if it had smalls or built-in UI for dat gud gud 25% I'd appreciate it as a quick attack frigate, but top speed, top mobility and medium mount? Too above grade for me
Off the top of my head...
Frigates with medium mounts: Wolf, Cerberus, Hound, Tempest, Hyperion, Vigilance, Brawler.
Frigates with energy mounts: Wolf, Tempest, Hyperion, Vigilance, Brawler (TT), Scarab, Omen, Afflictor, Shade. Plus those with hybrid or universal slots.
Frigates with medium energy mounts: Wolf, Tempest, Hyperion, Vigilance, Brawler (TT).

Sorry; flexible combat frigates, which removes most of that list save, say, the wolf and the brawler and maaaybe the tempest
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A.Winge

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Re: Wolf Class frigates are just anoying to fight
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2017, 02:58:59 PM »

I find the Wolf to be annoying, but not the worst.

I find phase ships to be much more annoying to fight (and yet, typically not threatening...).  Thank Ludd that the AI is not super skilled with the Hyperion...  :o

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sotanaht

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Re: Wolf Class frigates are just anoying to fight
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2017, 05:34:33 PM »

My recommendation is never forget to bring fast frigates of your own.  My fleets always include Tempests, and when possible some phase frigates as well (prefer Shades myself).  They are great for outmaneuvering the enemy.  Wolfs will never simply phase away, and for everything bigger the frigates can surround and box them in while your bigger ships go to work.  All of this works pretty much completely automatically btw, no orders needed.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 05:37:18 PM by sotanaht »
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Wolf Class frigates are just anoying to fight
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2017, 06:02:36 PM »

My advice to you is to get a Condor or Drover with a pair of Talon wings as soon as possible. They rip right through Wolves, other small frigates, and pirate garbage fleets in general.
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cjuicy

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Re: Wolf Class frigates are just anoying to fight
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2017, 09:22:48 PM »

Just get it to turn even slightly either way and ion cannon the crap outta it. Or Heavy Mauler. Or HVD. Or anything that hits like a truck. Flameout wolf is a dead wolf.
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Megas

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Re: Wolf Class frigates are just anoying to fight
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2017, 09:08:11 AM »

Many of the counters suggested are not available (enough in quantity) when pirate Wolves first attack.  The first easy counter is the zombie Condor and fighters found in the Galatian tutorial.

I also find Lashers annoying for my Wolf.  It kites and turtles, then it may suddenly charge.  One mistake, and the AI Lasher lets loose with kinetic spam and my Wolf is flux-locked or overloaded in almost an instant.  Wolf that uses pulse laser or any blaster has to manage flux very carefully.
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Death_Silence_66

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Re: Wolf Class frigates are just anoying to fight
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2017, 12:35:17 AM »

I also find Lashers annoying for my Wolf.  It kites and turtles, then it may suddenly charge.  One mistake, and the AI Lasher lets loose with kinetic spam and my Wolf is flux-locked or overloaded in almost an instant.  Wolf that uses pulse laser or any blaster has to manage flux very carefully.

Wolf vs. Lasher is fairly one sided in player control. Kite so the lasher is moving toward you then charge and then phase skim through the lasher and blow out its engines. If it survives, use the remaining charges to escape. Rinse and repeat.
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Anchorshag

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Re: Wolf Class frigates are just anoying to fight
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2017, 02:11:46 AM »

Wolves are probably the most OP frigate by far. They are, to my experience, the only ship that requires any sort of dedicated counter. I dont spend my time thinking, "hmm, how to deal with that Cerberus". If you can beat the wolves you can beat the fleet.

They need a nerf to the phase skimmer. Either it carries less charges, regens charges slower or something but being kited for 30 minutes in a 2v2 frigate battle is not fun. The phase skimmer should be used to tactically dodge certain attacks, like salamander LRMs, not to backpeddle out of range constantly. It is, so far, my only real gripe about this game.
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Allectus

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Re: Wolf Class frigates are just anoying to fight
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2017, 03:57:46 AM »

I don't see this as a problem in the slightest. There are an immense number of counters including fighters, missiles, your own fast frigates, and flanking.  You can acquire all of these counters ridiculously early to boot.  More to the point, I appreciate that there are other play styles beyond lumbering slugfests, and also that the AI seems reasonably capable at executing kiting tactics in addition to accounting themselves well in slugfests.  It's a fleet archetype you need to be prepared to counter or run from, just like carrier fleets or giant capital fleets.

What does annoy me is when forces that have clearly lost no longer engage in the fight, but also do not retreat.  This is a tricky problem, because if the AI is too apt to retreat you'll never have the opportunity to engage in enjoyable decisive battles.  The solution that seems most reasonable to me is to have at least one capture point on every tactical map, and further to have each net held capture point degrade the opposing teams CR at an accelerated pace.  Small maps could have a single capture point whose only effect is to trigger this mechanic.

If you hold the field then the enemy should either challenge you or leave.  Since we want to be careful about forcing the AI to leave too early we can instead give them the duration of the CR to hang about, but give the side that holds the field the advantage in that race in the event of a stalemate.  Hopefully this would allow for decisive battles to occur while cutting down on the need to chase a frig around for 10 minutes while further leaving the wolf just as dangerous as it is today if it is capable of actually being a threat in the given situation.
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MisterSpock

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Re: Wolf Class frigates are just anoying to fight
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2017, 04:01:19 AM »

Wolves are probably the most OP frigate by far. They are, to my experience, the only ship that requires any sort of dedicated counter. I dont spend my time thinking, "hmm, how to deal with that Cerberus". If you can beat the wolves you can beat the fleet.

They need a nerf to the phase skimmer. Either it carries less charges, regens charges slower or something but being kited for 30 minutes in a 2v2 frigate battle is not fun. The phase skimmer should be used to tactically dodge certain attacks, like salamander LRMs, not to backpeddle out of range constantly. It is, so far, my only real gripe about this game.

Then you must see the Phase Frigates like afflictor, which can oneshot a lot of sametier frigates.
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SCC

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Re: Wolf Class frigates are just anoying to fight
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2017, 04:57:02 AM »

Hmm... Perhaps it's just me, but wolfs aren't that hard to fight, they just can get out of sticky situations (when other frigates can't). They start to be dangerous when you are very outnumbered when they can hit and run faster than you can cripple/kill wolfs.
Then again, I play SS for quite long time and maybe I just *can* destroy them, while newcomers can't.

Megas

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Re: Wolf Class frigates are just anoying to fight
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2017, 05:33:49 AM »

Wolf vs. Lasher is fairly one sided in player control. Kite so the lasher is moving toward you then charge and then phase skim through the lasher and blow out its engines. If it survives, use the remaining charges to escape. Rinse and repeat.
Could work for one-on-one.  I do not want to try that if there are more (and bigger) enemy ships behind the Lasher.
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Morbo513

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Re: Wolf Class frigates are just anoying to fight
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2017, 12:32:05 AM »

Of all the ships that are annoying to fight, Wolves are probably the least. If you're using a low-tech and underpowered fleet, sure they can be a pain, but they can't stand up to a beating. A good array of kinetic weapons and missiles will keep them at bay, fighters will tear them to shreds and Salamanders will force them back. Having fast frigates of your own will seal the deal.
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Camael

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Re: Wolf Class frigates are just anoying to fight
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2017, 01:00:49 AM »

One thing, Alex already stated the pirate wolf-spam will be nerfed, so that's dealt with.

Concerning all other issues, the Wolf is rather obviously designed as an early-game player ship. Mobility and firepower offset by paper-skin and mediocre flux stats. I don't want to see it nerfed, ever, it's kind of the icon of early game success. Few other ships are able to win 3 on 1 frigate battles through sheer skill. The wolf does. Having it be annoying but not really dangerous in the hands of the A.I. makes this really, really good design in my perception.
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