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Author Topic: Ability: Fleet Detachment  (Read 13932 times)

Morbo513

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Ability: Fleet Detachment
« on: May 04, 2017, 11:14:20 AM »

One thing that I always find grinding my gears is the constant cat-and-mouse between fleets of the same burn level. The idea here is that you're able to designate a number of ships within your fleet as a detachment. When the ability is activated, these ships will detach from the main fleet to "tackle" the fleeing target fleet, obviously they'll only be successful if they exceed the target's burn level (E-burn/S-burn notwithstanding). If successful, this initiates a battle, but any of your ships not part of the detachment cannot be deployed until a certain amount of time has passed (Distance between main fleet and detachment v main fleet max burn). This means if the detachment overextends, the enemy fleet may decide to stand their ground and possibly eliminate it before your main firepower can be brought to bear, enabling them to flee if so. The target fleet will however still take into account your entire fleet composition, so they may decide to disengage - the only pursuers you'd then have available is that detachment, which may not be sufficient to present an obstacle to the fleeing fleet before the rest of yours arrives. This extends the utility of frigates, and would lead to less AI fleets flying out to the edges of the map pursuing a target they'll never catch.
I also had a couple ideas kicking about on strategic weapons/abilities such as EM weapons and electronic warfare to serve the purpose of slowing down a target fleet, but idk.
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tinsoldier

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Re: Ability: Fleet Detachment
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2017, 03:16:21 PM »

But what if the computer could do the same thing :(  It could make early game pretty tough. I like it.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Ability: Fleet Detachment
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2017, 03:46:26 PM »

I also think this is a good idea and would solve a few other problems. It also makes things more interesting in campaign since you have to worry about the ships you left behind (your civilians), and try to attack other peoples freighter fleets. The enemy should have it.

Since your fleet's cargo isn't assigned to specific ships, it would either have to be proportionally distributed to both parts of the fleet, or most of it to the 'main' fleet, or distributed so that each portion of the fleet has a minimum of X days of flying, etc.

also if your strike fleet was just ahead of the main fleet, your main fleet might have time to catch up and enter the battle a couple minutes late
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Morbo513

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Re: Ability: Fleet Detachment
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2017, 05:58:27 PM »

Cargo space/fuel capacity of the detachment's ships could also factor in to how far out they can go, but mechanically speaking, the idea isn't to form a separate fleet. Just imagine it as the circle representing yours expanding to touch the runners - the larger the circle, the longer it'll take for the main fleet to become available in the battle. Honestly, I wish we could command several fleets or at least two, and dynamically merge/split them, essentially allowing you to create a mobile HQ of sorts with your transports, salvage ships, fuel tankers and supplies, while you break off with most of your combat ships to fight. Could even implement ships/equipment that reduce the CR cost of refitting in space.
But I digress, the extent of this suggestion essentially boils down to an ability extending your strategic engagement range . And yeah, the AI would hopefully take advantage of this ability too, because it's all too easy to outrun enemy fleets if their burn speed matches yours, especially with the current S-burn mechanics. Speaking of which a thread discussing them had a mention of drive field jammers or something along those lines, essentially serving the same purpose. While it'd probably be mechanically simpler, I think it makes more sense to have to put a weaker, but faster portion of your fleet at risk to catch fleeing enemies as opposed to simply tapping an ability button and having the target fleet magically slow down, at the cost of CR/Supplies which is pretty inconsequential if you're in the position to spend them.
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TrashMan

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Re: Ability: Fleet Detachment
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2017, 03:51:27 AM »

Good idea.

Proper fleets normally have pickets, scouts and forward elements.
I really want to see something like that.


The ability to split the fleet gives you (and the AI) a lot more tactical options.
You can use a small group of fast ships to engage and delay an enemy enough for the main force to catch up.
Or you can use it as a rearguard, to delay the persuing enemy force until your main fleet can get more distance. Then you pull them out too (if you can).
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arwan

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Re: Ability: Fleet Detachment
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2017, 05:58:48 AM »

you know i actually remember this exact same suggestion from 2011 or 2012.

personally i think it "could" be a good idea but it would need some restraints. like your "picket ships" that are going to burn faster than your fleet to catch the pirate fleet would have to have a limited range and or timer where they could be separated from your fleet.

but in the same turn. i dont know if this would solve anything because i can just see the AI turning around sooner to run from you. i think a better solution would be the ability to spoof your transponder codes to show up as a "friendly" fleet to the target, assuming they have not already positively ID'd you, allowing you to close in on them and engage. the balance would be that it only lasts a few seconds at a time and would have a cool down period. that way if the ability ended up in the enemies hands as well you as the player would also have a way to combat it. that being stay away from everyone until you believe you truly have identified them.
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Alex
You won't be able to refit fighters and bombers at all. They're designed/balanced around having a particular set of weapons and would be very broken if you could change it. Which ones you pick for your fleet -out of quite a few that are available- is the choice here, not how they're outfitted.

Morbo513

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Re: Ability: Fleet Detachment
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2017, 08:15:51 AM »

you know i actually remember this exact same suggestion from 2011 or 2012.

personally i think it "could" be a good idea but it would need some restraints. like your "picket ships" that are going to burn faster than your fleet to catch the pirate fleet would have to have a limited range and or timer where they could be separated from your fleet.

but in the same turn. i dont know if this would solve anything because i can just see the AI turning around sooner to run from you. i think a better solution would be the ability to spoof your transponder codes to show up as a "friendly" fleet to the target, assuming they have not already positively ID'd you, allowing you to close in on them and engage. the balance would be that it only lasts a few seconds at a time and would have a cool down period. that way if the ability ended up in the enemies hands as well you as the player would also have a way to combat it. that being stay away from everyone until you believe you truly have identified them.
I think having the restriction be dynamic based on how far out you send them would be the most interesting way to handle it - maybe such a system could allow for the picket fleet to slightly exceed its maximum burn speed, but to do so they've shed everything but crew, weapons, ammo and fuel, leaving the excess with the main fleet. This means the picket fleet would bleed CR as they catch up to the target, making use of the ability a more weighted choice. If they burn out too far, and their CR is heavily depleted on top of the main fleet taking longer to arrive, a battle you might expect to win handily even without the reinforcements could turn sour. It also means you're committing to the supply cost of restoring those ships, beyond what it'd cost from a normal battle.
The biggest thing that inspired this suggestion is the endless chase between fleets of the same burn level, where nobody's catching up and nobody's getting away. It'd also lead to some interesting battles when you're the one trying to get away. Let's say there's a fleet with a bunch of capital ships, but they send out a detachment of a few lashers to slow you down. You might be able to wipe the floor with those lashers, but you have to do it quickly or you'll find yourself outclassed in short order; Or, the division of their fleet might give you an opportunity to turn the tables in that timeframe, taking out some of their best harassing vessels before you even have to think about that Onslaught and its friends.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Ability: Fleet Detachment
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2017, 02:59:37 PM »

I think this solves a lot of the awkwardness of fleet engagements between very different sized fleets. Large enemy fleets send detachments after the player so that the player has a chance to quickly defeat the detachment and avoid the main fleet. As the player you can finally deal with small enemy fleets tailing you everywhere. I think just having some set number of supplies in you detachment based on its size would be enough to restrict how far you could go with it. I also love the idea of some time pressure in battle where if you just hold out long enough, your main fleet arrives, or if you can just clean up this force quick enough, you can escape the huge fleet chasing you. This might also allow  some balance changes to burn level and burn abilities. Big fleets/ships could burn slower because the fleet can still catch/engage smaller fleets. Might make emergency burn even more obsolete though. Also you could get those pesky probes/stations hiding in solar coronas without throwing away 300 supplies.

One question though:  does the AI tend to engage your detachment because it is of similar strength even though your main fleet is huge, or does the AI run away still? How does the AI consider both your detachment and main fleet strength, could be tricky to figure out.
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Morbo513

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Re: Ability: Fleet Detachment
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2017, 09:58:45 PM »

I suppose in how they react to your own detachments, it's an assessment of detachment strength vs time til reinforcements vs their own strength. If their strength outweighs that of the detachment, and there's enough time for them to do so, they will go "full assault", the lower your rep with the faction they belong to, the more likely they'd be to do so. Honestly though, this whole thing does clash with the disengagement mechanics - whatever the case, unless the main fleet was close enough to practically start the battle its self, if they disengage it'll pretty much just be the detachment trying to catch them. Though, good maneuvering and use of command can keep at least some of their ships pinned and unable to advance to the top of the map in time. Whether the AI would be capable of the same is what would determine how well it serves gameplay when they player's the one trying to flee. There's also the question of how the detachment fleet would be limited. Frigates only? Hard cap on numbers? The faster cruisers could still have utility in this role. Personally I think it should be entirely up to the player, except maybe not to exceed half the ships in your fleet. Also, I don't think the detachment should be able to hold any of its ships in reserve; the idea is they've been committed and rushed into position.
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arwan

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Re: Ability: Fleet Detachment
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2017, 12:35:35 AM »

another option i can think of that may make this quite interesting. is thus

you would need a sub commander AKA AI captain. that you assign before leaving space dock to a special sub set of ships in your fleet (these ships you would want to be the fastest burn ships in the fleet)

now once you are in normal space or sector space, when you come across a fleet you want to engage but cant catch up to you could have an ability on your bar to send out your sub commanders chase fleet. again i would say this ability should have a limited time of life before the commander has to return to the main fleet. and then also should have a fairly long cool down. to simulate refueling and supplying the ships. also could require XXX fuel and XXX supplies to use the ability.

if the chase fleet catches the target could make it so that they are the only ships able to engage the target for XXX amount of time and make it not possible for the player to take direct control of a ship in combat until the reinforcements arrive AKA main fleet. also should limit the number of commands you can give during battle and they should not start to regenerate until the main fleet arrives. once the rest of the fleet arrives you would get the rest of your remaining command points as well as they start to regenerate.

the time until your reinforcements arrive should be substantial as to not just try and get your ships to huddle in a corner or the like. to wait for reinforcements.
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Alex
You won't be able to refit fighters and bombers at all. They're designed/balanced around having a particular set of weapons and would be very broken if you could change it. Which ones you pick for your fleet -out of quite a few that are available- is the choice here, not how they're outfitted.

Schwartz

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Re: Ability: Fleet Detachment
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2017, 06:33:35 AM »

I like it. You designate a group of fast mships to tackle and take the risk of an engagement with worse odds and delayed reinforcements. Thumbs up.
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Megas

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Re: Ability: Fleet Detachment
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2017, 08:58:42 AM »

I do not know if I want detachment if the enemy can do the same against me!  They have a big armada, I do not.  I can get away from their big fleet, but they split, their little faster fleet catches me, now I need to fight the whole armada anyway.  The latecomers may be placed a bit further back, but that does not matter in a prolonged battle.

Sounds good when you can do it, but not when they can do it too.

Detachments can have more use beyond combat if we can delegate menial tasks like item or ship transfers.
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Morbo513

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Re: Ability: Fleet Detachment
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2017, 10:33:46 AM »

I do not know if I want detachment if the enemy can do the same against me!  They have a big armada, I do not.  I can get away from their big fleet, but they split, their little faster fleet catches me, now I need to fight the whole armada anyway.  The latecomers may be placed a bit further back, but that does not matter in a prolonged battle.
That's the point. You have to end the battle decisively either by retreat or wiping the floor with the detachment. Using full assault can facilitate this if your ships and officers are good enough, but might be costlier than attempting to disengage. I think with such a system, you should always be able to attempt to disengage regardless of your fleet size. Also E-burn/S-burn can still be used by both the player and AI to avoid the detachment entirely.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 10:35:30 AM by Morbo513 »
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Megas

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Re: Ability: Fleet Detachment
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2017, 10:44:41 AM »

If you can destroy the detachment, then the problem is moot; you just kill everything and get your loot.  The problem is if you have a big fleet not built for combat (or does not have enough CR left to fight another fleet), then the fleet you want to run away from, you cannot because they split and catch you.  Much like now where pirate scout catches your early-game fleet and a big pirate armada nearby joins in.  You might be able to kill the scouts, but the armada will destroy you.

If you have a small fleet, you can run.  Fine, no problem.

If you have a big fleet (and enemy not in disarray), you are not allowed to retreat.  Instead, you are forced to stand and fight until enough ships die.  Likely yours if they are not ready for combat.
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Morbo513

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Re: Ability: Fleet Detachment
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2017, 10:47:15 AM »

If you can destroy the detachment, then the problem is moot; you just kill everything and get your loot.  The problem is if you have a big fleet not built for combat (or does not have enough CR left to fight another fleet), then the fleet you want to run away from, you cannot because they split and catch you.  Much like now where pirate scout catches your early-game fleet and a big pirate armada nearby joins in.  You might be able to kill the scouts, but the armada will destroy you.

If you have a small fleet, you can run.  Fine, no problem.

If you have a big fleet (and enemy not in disarray), you are not allowed to retreat.  Instead, you are forced to stand and fight until enough ships die.  Likely yours if they are not ready for combat.
This is why I said it'd be best if you could attempt to disengage from an attack by a detachment regardless of fleet size. In what way is the rest of what you describe a bad thing, anyway? If you're focusing on non-combat but aren't using combat ships for escort, why wouldn't pirates and such take advantage of this? In fact, they already do. Being as it is that most pirate fleets are frigates and cruisers at worst, they wouldn't make much use of this ability anyway due to their fleets' usually fast burn speeds.
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If you can destroy the detachment, then the problem is moot; you just kill everything and get your loot
The point here is, let's say you're evenly matched more or less with the detachment, but the rest of the enemy fleet outguns you by a huge amount. Going with the option of attempting to wipe the detachment or force them into retreat will be a lot messier under the time pressure of doing so before their main fleet arrives. Still possible, but you'll have to put your own ships at greater risk in combat to be successful. Or, you can attempt to disengage, and use combat vessels to screen for the retreating utility ships, maybe even sacrificing some to ensure their escape.
What you say about loot also ties in to another suggestion I have, which is to make salvage operations/ship recovery take time rather than be instant, post-battle or at the site of a derelict. If you hang around to get your (or enemy) disabled ships operational again after wiping out the detachment, the main fleet will catch up with you.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 10:55:45 AM by Morbo513 »
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