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Author Topic: [0.8a] Better Beginning v0.3 - Create the Story!  (Read 13411 times)
Tartiflette
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« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2017, 02:07:56 AM »

How about a start with an Enforcer D plus Buffalo Mk2. or something like that?
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AxleMC131
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« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2017, 03:04:34 AM »

Tempest is just too good (and expensive!) to pick anything else as primary.
Maybe it should come with downsides, like some combination of: no secondary ship/less starting credits/lowered rep with some factions/D-mods on it?

The Tempest is a great ship - I consider it the next step up from the Wolf - but it does require more maintenance and it does require a little more practise to fly (it's just too fast!).

Having said that... I'd ideally like to give it a rep balance, but as previously stated I can't do that until 0.8.1. Less credits is a possibility, but all these options have to work whether the player chooses to play with the tutorial or not, and if they do they only start with 2k credits, and they sorta need that for it. Not letting the player have a second ship is completely out of the question as it ruins part of the point of 0.8 giving the player more ships: Fleets are important.


How about a start with an Enforcer D plus Buffalo Mk2. or something like that?

I'd rather limit the player just to frigates for now. The engagement curve can be fairly steep if you start the player with Destroyers - this is both my opinion and a perspective shared by several other users in various posts/discord chats/etc.

HOWEVER, I have considered completely overhauling the ship selection sequence (as opposed to just adding to it) to be closer to what Nexerelin does, where you choose a faction and then type of fleet, and it gives you a preset selection of ships. The three things keeping me from doing that are A) I'd prefer to keep things simple and "stockalike" as it were, B) I want a big part of the ship selection to be the combination of primary and secondary ships, and C) I'd just be copying Nexerelin...

On a somewhat related note, could it be worth giving the player a third ship option?
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« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2017, 04:05:54 AM »

How about a start with an Enforcer D plus Buffalo Mk2. or something like that?
Very much this.

I'd rather limit the player just to frigates for now. The engagement curve can be fairly steep if you start the player with Destroyers - this is both my opinion and a perspective shared by several other users in various posts/discord chats/etc.
This is something I have never experienced when using previous mods which allowed you to start with a destroyer.
On the whole it made the early game far easier by; giving you a greater ability to fight while allowing for more "mistakes", gives you a far greater flexibility for loadouts, and it just flat removes the requirement to play a twitch shooter for those that don't like that kind of game.

Given the choice I would pick a destroyer start (any destroyer) just to avoid having to fly a frigate, which I dislike immensely.
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« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2017, 05:18:17 AM »

To be honest, this shouldn't be a mod but an in-game feature (well, there's still plenty of time for Alex to enhance the start).

But anyway, I really like what you did here. It may do remind me a little bit of Nexerelin start options but only because it was a first mod to offer something like this when SS itself wasn't giving us any options there really. Now it does, but they're limited - which is exactly what you have remedied. I do really like the options, starting with cerberus + dram was pretty unorthodox for me but was a nice change.

If I was to suggest something though, I would highlight the lasher for newer players, perhaps throw in some more cash along it etc. But that's the only thing I could think of.
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« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2017, 06:30:03 AM »

To be fair the start ship choice is made within the tutorial's sytem salvage field. And since you have access to these ships wether you do the tutorial or not I'm not that concerned with the limited choice.
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« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2017, 09:49:21 AM »

Tempest is just too good (and expensive!) to pick anything else as primary.
Maybe it should come with downsides, like some combination of: no secondary ship/less starting credits/lowered rep with some factions/D-mods on it?
i like the idea of giving the Tempest option a d-mod or two, something that takes away some of its speed and/or flux stats. even if it's more expensive to field already, Tempest is just too good in comparison to the other ships on offer unless there are some serious drawbacks.
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AxleMC131
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« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2017, 04:13:30 PM »

... The engagement curve can be fairly steep if you start the player with Destroyers ...
This is something I have never experienced when using previous mods which allowed you to start with a destroyer.
On the whole it made the early game far easier by; giving you a greater ability to fight while allowing for more "mistakes", gives you a far greater flexibility for loadouts, and it just flat removes the requirement to play a twitch shooter for those that don't like that kind of game.

Given the choice I would pick a destroyer start (any destroyer) just to avoid having to fly a frigate, which I dislike immensely.

Hmm, you think? Maybe I do need to think about this a little more...


I really like what you did here. It may do remind me a little bit of Nexerelin start options but only because it was a first mod to offer something like this when SS itself wasn't giving us any options there really. Now it does, but they're limited - which is exactly what you have remedied. I do really like the options, starting with cerberus + dram was pretty unorthodox for me but was a nice change.

Glad you're enjoying it! Part of the point of the mod was to experiment with different combinations of starting ships, so it's good to see people trying new things out.

If I was to suggest something though, I would highlight the lasher for newer players, perhaps throw in some more cash along it etc. But that's the only thing I could think of.

Good call - it is a pretty low-brow ship, and good for beginners. I'll make a note.


To be fair the start ship choice is made within the tutorial's sytem salvage field. And since you have access to these ships wether you do the tutorial or not I'm not that concerned with the limited choice.

Hmm, good point. I suppose my biggest fear is that I'll give the player a ship option that allows them to fly through the tutorial without finding it challenging and/or fun at all. If the player chooses to play the tutorial, I'd rather keep it fun for them. But then again, I have weird fundamentals, so I guess other people need to tell me if that's a good idea or not. So far it seems not.


i like the idea of giving the Tempest option a d-mod or two, something that takes away some of its speed and/or flux stats. even if it's more expensive to field already, Tempest is just too good in comparison to the other ships on offer unless there are some serious drawbacks.

Perhaps. I could do that pretty easily with a custom variant (and almost did until I couldn't think of anything better to put on a Tempest than what it has already...). Still, feels a little cheap, to give the player what is a pretty darn good ship and then say, "nah, it's actually a slightly sh*ttier version, sorry mate." I guess I'd just need to come up with a reasonable way to do it.



So, interestingly, it seems that perhaps the Tempest isn't the best thing to give the player as an option, yet people want the ability to start with Destroyers. So, here's a question for you:

Do I redo Better Beginning to completely overhaul how the game starts you, and give the player bigger fleet options? There's a couple of ways I would consider doing this:

- The Nexerelin method: Give the player a selection of "fleet types", (single frigate, small convoy, military detatchment, etc.) each with a preset selection of ships, and perhaps a flag that specifies each fleet type as a difficulty level.
- The chain method (stockalike): Expand the number of times the player is given a choice when making their fleet, so the same as the current method but they could choose from different selections to get three or four ships in total.
- The "Bigger first" method: Similar to above, but make the players flagship something a little bigger. This would be the simplest "destroyer start" method.
- The career choices method: Instead of giving the player ship options, return to what was done a long time ago for Starsector where you go through what was effectively a questionaire that built up your past career and life in the sector, then decided on your ship(s) depending on that. At each stage (question) I could the player a ship without announcing it, then at the end show the player what their fleet and situation is. While this method sounds fun on paper, it's also the one that gives the player the least control over their ships, and would work best for a role-play scenario where the player takes what comes.

If anyone has a better idea for a method, please do share. Wink Bear in mind that I'd still prefer to keep things simple if at all possible.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 04:15:59 PM by AxleMC131 » Logged



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« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2017, 05:20:34 PM »

To be fair the start ship choice is made within the tutorial's sytem salvage field. And since you have access to these ships wether you do the tutorial or not I'm not that concerned with the limited choice.

Hmm, good point. I suppose my biggest fear is that I'll give the player a ship option that allows them to fly through the tutorial without finding it challenging and/or fun at all. If the player chooses to play the tutorial, I'd rather keep it fun for them. But then again, I have weird fundamentals, so I guess other people need to tell me if that's a good idea or not. So far it seems not.
fer to keep things simple if at all possible.

Well, to be honest. A new player is rather not going to install the mod on his first day of playing starsector.

Quote
So, interestingly, it seems that perhaps the Tempest isn't the best thing to give the player as an option, yet people want the ability to start with Destroyers. So, here's a question for you:

Do I redo Better Beginning to completely overhaul how the game starts you, and give the player bigger fleet options? There's a couple of ways I would consider doing this:

- The Nexerelin method: Give the player a selection of "fleet types", (single frigate, small convoy, military detatchment, etc.) each with a preset selection of ships, and perhaps a flag that specifies each fleet type as a difficulty level.
- The chain method (stockalike): Expand the number of times the player is given a choice when making their fleet, so the same as the current method but they could choose from different selections to get three or four ships in total.
- The "Bigger first" method: Similar to above, but make the players flagship something a little bigger. This would be the simplest "destroyer start" method.
- The career choices method: Instead of giving the player ship options, return to what was done a long time ago for Starsector where you go through what was effectively a questionaire that built up your past career and life in the sector, then decided on your ship(s) depending on that. At each stage (question) I could the player a ship without announcing it, then at the end show the player what their fleet and situation is. While this method sounds fun on paper, it's also the one that gives the player the least control over their ships, and would work best for a role-play scenario where the player takes what comes.

If anyone has a better idea for a method, please do share. Wink Bear in mind that I'd still prefer to keep things simple if at all possible.

Either of the last 2 honestly. I liked the "career" building but at the same time I would go with the current form for a while (though the one-liners for description before you even hoover your cursor over them are really nice!). So rather "Bigger first"...

but

If we wanna add in destroyers as a choice (and then I guess perhaps lil bigger transports?) - I would cut off the high-tech ships like Tempest namely. As for destroyer's, well we don't have a huge choice but I don't feel like it would be proper to go "tempest route" aka letting start with a Medusa for example. I would keep down to the enforcer or hammerhead (with mule & buffallo for less/non combat paths?*). I would even think that in case of enforcer or hammerhead perhaps they could come in with one d-mod? Though this starts some problems cuz if it's going to be a pres-elected one, some ppl might not like it. If it's going to be random, some people will get the least desirable d-mod... So I don't know.

But for "destroyer tab choice" I would propose; Hammerhead, Enforcer, Mule, Buffalo. Then frigate ship choice and the last support ship choice.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 05:22:32 PM by Hussar » Logged
AxleMC131
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« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2017, 05:50:40 PM »

Well, to be honest. A new player is rather not going to install the mod on his first day of playing starsector.

True. Very true.


Either of the last 2 honestly. I liked the "career" building but at the same time I would go with the current form for a while (though the one-liners for description before you even hoover your cursor over them are really nice!). So rather "Bigger first"...

but

If we wanna add in destroyers as a choice (and then I guess perhaps lil bigger transports?) - I would cut off the high-tech ships like Tempest namely. As for destroyer's, well we don't have a huge choice but I don't feel like it would be proper to go "tempest route" aka letting start with a Medusa for example. I would keep down to the enforcer or hammerhead (with mule & buffallo for less/non combat paths?*). I would even think that in case of enforcer or hammerhead perhaps they could come in with one d-mod? Though this starts some problems cuz if it's going to be a pres-elected one, some ppl might not like it. If it's going to be random, some people will get the least desirable d-mod... So I don't know.

But for "destroyer tab choice" I would propose; Hammerhead, Enforcer, Mule, Buffalo. Then frigate ship choice and the last support ship choice.

Hmm, I'd prefer not to give players ships with D-mods to start with if I can avoid it. It's not hard to do, it just feels cheap. On the other hand, I wouldn't be against giving the player a ship without a full complement of weapons. Just requires a custom variant with some empty slots - that way the start is balanced, and the player has to find some extra weapons before they can take full advantage of a destroyer start - it slows them down a little without being a permanent debuff.

As for the selection, I wasn't even thinking about putting the Medusa in the lineup. XD Goodness me, no way. Hammerhead/Enforcer/Mule/Buffalo feels good, although if I was going to give them a pirate option I'd give them the Buffalo MkII option. Then, if people think that's a stupid idea, I can also grant them the "Front Shield Generator" hullmod.
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« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2017, 06:20:29 PM »

Oh, yeah I just wanted to have it balanced so hence why D-mod thought - perhaps in the future something will still change about them but I guess you're right.
So not complete/best weapons loadout works too I think. It actually made me look, and for example Enforcer have an "outdated" variant & hammerhead have a "tutorial" one - both which could been used as starting options? Tongue

After all, destroyer is a destroyer. But it will leave up to the players to gear it up to suit their gamestyle and in general be an effective type of dd.
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« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2017, 06:26:45 PM »

I think a Hammerhead would be a good starting destroyer. Decently cheap to use, nice shield coverage, hybrid mounts and Ammo Feeder
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« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2017, 06:30:30 PM »

Oh, yeah I just wanted to have it balanced so hence why D-mod thought - perhaps in the future something will still change about them but I guess you're right.
So not complete/best weapons loadout works too I think. It actually made me look, and for example Enforcer have an "outdated" variant & hammerhead have a "tutorial" one - both which could been used as starting options? Tongue

True. Don't forget I can do custom variants, so if I want to make something explicitly an "early start" loadout, then I can do that.


I think a Hammerhead would be a good starting destroyer. Decently cheap to use, nice shield coverage, hybrid mounts and Ammo Feeder

Yep, it's arguably one of the best destroyers for being versatile, forgiving and reliable.
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« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2017, 11:05:31 PM »

Also, in what universe starting with an Enforcer D that has a few D mods and a Buffalo MK.2 would be easier than a fricking Tempest!???
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« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2017, 11:10:46 PM »

Also, in what universe starting with an Enforcer D that has a few D mods and a Buffalo MK.2 would be easier than a fricking Tempest!???

Mmm, again, it's my stupid fundamentals.  Undecided It's not a matter of easier, it's a matter of "starting with destroyers". However, having had that discussion, I think I may need to bite the bullet and go for a full redo of the ship selection sequence.
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« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2017, 11:12:40 PM »

It's just an excuse to have a Pirate start that is not a slog in a Hound D plus a Mudskipper MK.2
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