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Author Topic: Massive disparity between combat vs non-combat EXP gain.  (Read 17891 times)

xenoargh

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Re: Massive disparity between combat vs non-combat EXP gain.
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2018, 05:48:44 AM »

The level hard-cap at 40 wasn't a super idea.

I feel like it just rewards players who are following a cherry-picking guide, and punishes people who are actually exploring the game the first time.  I really couldn't care less about the power-curve at the high end, where there are plenty of good solutions if we merely want it to be harder.
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Sarissofoi

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Re: Massive disparity between combat vs non-combat EXP gain.
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2018, 05:53:42 AM »

The level gain over 40 is much slower than normal one.
I would say that main disadvantage of non combat leveling is that your officers don't get EXP. Any.

xenoargh

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Re: Massive disparity between combat vs non-combat EXP gain.
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2018, 06:02:32 AM »

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I would say that main disadvantage of non combat leveling is that your officers don't get EXP. Any.
Good point.

Perhaps a "training" mechanic like Mount and Blade has would be a good solution, or, now that we can finally build Outposts... an Officer Academy to train up new candidates, or to give smallish XP over time to advanced officers "seconded to the Academy as trainers", etc.

Hmm.  With an Officer Academy as an improvement option to get some passive XP, it might be worthwhile to revisit perma-death for Officers, at least in Hardcore.
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Megas

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Re: Massive disparity between combat vs non-combat EXP gain.
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2018, 07:13:06 AM »

With current xp gain, leveling up to 50 is not too slow.  I reach the cap of level 40 during the midgame, before I find my first capital.  Leveling past 50 is slow, but reaching 60 or higher is not impossible for those who either grind and stick with one game or those that use save transfer mod.
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WolfSkimmer

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Re: Massive disparity between combat vs non-combat EXP gain.
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2018, 10:38:38 AM »

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perma-death for Officers, at least in Hardcore.

Please tell me there is a mod for this! I would love to lose some power each time I get fleet wiped.
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xenoargh

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Re: Massive disparity between combat vs non-combat EXP gain.
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2018, 11:57:15 AM »

IIRC, wasn't that a Nexerelin feature?  I used to have that as an option in Vacuum, but it's not compatible with 0.81a+ and I don't think I'm ever reviving it.
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Megas

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Re: Massive disparity between combat vs non-combat EXP gain.
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2018, 01:46:29 PM »

Nexerelin has officer deaths.  I did not like it, and reloaded the game if an officer is lost, just like a rare ship or weapon.  Not spending hours grinding a new officer.
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stormbringer951

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Re: Massive disparity between combat vs non-combat EXP gain.
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2018, 05:01:40 PM »

Nexerelin has officer deaths.  I did not like it, and reloaded the game if an officer is lost, just like a rare ship or weapon.  Not spending hours grinding a new officer.

Go to Nexerelin mod folder and open exerelin_config.json. Find the line:

Code
    "officerDeaths": true,	# officer permadeath

Change true to false.
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Megas

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Re: Massive disparity between combat vs non-combat EXP gain.
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2018, 05:14:56 PM »

I know that setting is in a json and can be changed.  Not a fan of messing with jsons unless absolutely necessary (like disabling shaders that will not run on my computer).
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Techhead

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Re: Massive disparity between combat vs non-combat EXP gain.
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2018, 09:45:30 PM »

Generally, any json with "config" or "settings" in the name is meant to be messed with.
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Camael

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Re: Massive disparity between combat vs non-combat EXP gain.
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2018, 01:06:58 AM »

Combat XP gain should be the mainstay of character development in this game, it's the goal Alex has announced time and again. Most of the mechanics emphasize this - guardians at exploration targets, random salvage-pirates, Luddites waiting in hyperspace to eat Your trade-goods, etc. Combat is the fun part of the game, or at least should be. Everything else just gives an economic and logistical backdrop that makes winning or losing relevant. Maybe giving out more XP for different combat goals might make sense - disengaging with few or no losses (calculated by ship- and cargo-value) should give more XP as a passive for industry/trade skills. Or increasing combat XP based on distance to the core worlds, taking into account the logistical limitations of such confrontations.

Hard level cap is a nonsensical idea, always has been, especially in a singleplayer sandbox, but it can be banished with a simple edit of the settings file. It was an experiment of sorts, and might not stand. On that I totally agree, but honestly, the first thing I do when a new version comes out, before launching, is to go into the settings.json and killing it, so I have no experience on how that feels. I keep wondering why those in the community that dislike it seem so heavily inclined to not customize their game to what they'd like to see, as it is intentionally made quite accessible.
With no level cap (or a higher one), the level curve should still rise a little more steeply from a slightly earlier point to make sure choices matter and "filling up" wanted skills is a hard earned bonus gained by playing with Your choices, not a must-have, but that would be a balancing issue late in development, when all skills and their interactions are fully fleshed out.

Finally, there is an alternative experience I could make with another game, (Wayward Terran Frontier) where combat is super-fun and super-useless. Effectively You earn money really fast by doing trade runs that are utterly booooooring, because nobody can catch You and take Your stuff. Then You run around shopping, again, not doing anything interesting. Looting is quite ineffective as an economic basis. (The game has no XP, progress is done via money only.) It's one of the weak points of the design, that the interesting part and progress towards shining in that part are not properly linked. Alex did a hell of a job on SS, making the fun part appear everywhere and making it so it gives You the means of becoming better at it.

In short, I think this is a very conscious design decision and apart from a few blind spots (level cap, not enough XP for special combat situations) it's great.
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Megas

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Re: Massive disparity between combat vs non-combat EXP gain.
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2018, 07:56:14 AM »

I prefer hard caps (that are reasonably attainable) so that players are not encouraged to grind their characters for days or longer for the perfect munchkin character.  I have done that myself, and I have seen others do it in Diablo 2 (in addition to grinding or cheating for items).

However, the current implementation in Starsector is not optimal, due to low cap and several universal must-have skills (in Leadership and Technology), that encourage fleet buffer, despite dead aptitude costs.  Also, the exploration game is gated behind Industry, and that requires nine points minimum.

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Finally, there is an alternative experience I could make with another game, (Wayward Terran Frontier) where combat is super-fun and super-useless. Effectively You earn money really fast by doing trade runs that are utterly booooooring, because nobody can catch You and take Your stuff. Then You run around shopping, again, not doing anything interesting. Looting is quite ineffective as an economic basis. (The game has no XP, progress is done via money only.) It's one of the weak points of the design, that the interesting part and progress towards shining in that part are not properly linked. Alex did a hell of a job on SS, making the fun part appear everywhere and making it so it gives You the means of becoming better at it.
It was not always like this.  0.65 had food runs, which gave most of your income and levels.  Combat was about 20% of your money and xp income once the player figured out how to complete all food shortages and bounties.  That said, this is not the case anymore.  I get your point, if the fun stuff is not optimal, it kind of stinks; worse if the boring stuff is optimal.  Come to think of it, this is why I dislike the skill system.  The best part - Combat - is not effective enough, and only you can take the fleet and campaign skills.  If you want to be the best, you must play party buffer and let your officers have all of the Combat skill glory.  It is cheaper to get Officer Management than the buff a single pilot-only skill to 3, let alone several.

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Generally, any json with "config" or "settings" in the name is meant to be messed with.
Considering that you can basically have godmode by doing so, not to mention that core Starsector's is somewhat buried and hidden, I do not think so.  Also, since my idea of fun is utterly destroying the enemy with overwhelming power, I would be so tempted to... cheat!  (Having balanced fights and barely winning is not fun, that is stupid if I have a choice to deploy more resources to crush the enemy... and save more resources in the long run by not letting the enemy destroy my rare and/or expensive stuff for the sake of a fair fight.)  The most I do so far is change game speed from 1f to 2f or higher because Starsector is too slow paced.
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Massive disparity between combat vs non-combat EXP gain.
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2018, 09:38:44 AM »

Having the option to cheat is not the same as cheating. No one is forcing you to turn on god mode, just adjust the setting that will make the game more enjoyable for you. I mess with settings all the time and I often make the game harder and easier at the same time by just adjusting the points I dislike.

Just employ some self control. I mean, you could have edited them a long time ago but you didn't even though all you need to do is click the file and change some lines, that's not so different from adjusting A and not touching B. If you are reloading the game every time you lost an officer you might as well save the trouble of the reloads and just take that option out.
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WolfSkimmer

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Re: Massive disparity between combat vs non-combat EXP gain.
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2018, 11:00:25 AM »

The most I do so far is change game speed from 1f to 2f or higher because Starsector is too slow paced.

Are you increasing the time speed up multiplier (shift key) during campaign travel? What is 1f to 2f?
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Megas

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Re: Massive disparity between combat vs non-combat EXP gain.
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2018, 11:41:45 AM »

Re: Self-Control
Easier said than done.  If that was true, the world would have no addicts.

Changing one thing for convenience without changing the other things that would cheat and make my character all-powerful really, REALLY hurts.  It is cruel.  This, among other arcane settings best left alone, is why I prefer not to alter jsons, unless necessary (like disabling a shader a mod needs to run.)  The way I see it, if you cannot alter it inside the game's settings (where key bindings and battle map size are), then it is cheating.  I only change the game speed from 1f to 2f because otherwise, I would quit Starsector for running in constant slo-mo.  Even then, it feels kind of dirty.

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Are you increasing the time speed up multiplier (shift key) during campaign travel? What is 1f to 2f?
Shift key does not speed up combat as it does for campaign (and even if it did, it would be like in classic Doom where you must hold Shift with your left pinky at all times to run).  Combat at 1f is horrifically slow.  Combat at 2f is slightly slow, and the fastest the game can run without losing fidelity.  2.5f or 3f would be ideal, but fidelity is lost somewhat.

That is the thing about json files.  User is messing with nuts and bolts, and if he does not know what he is doing, he could cause problems.
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