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Author Topic: [0.9.1a]STEELCLAD v1.0.25c ( 17.11.2019)  (Read 159780 times)

xenoargh

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Re: [0.9.1]STEELCLAD v1.0.6 ( 6.06.2019) - please move to MODS
« Reply #225 on: June 11, 2019, 12:41:00 AM »

Welcome to the problems I've been working on forever, lol.

In all seriousness, no-shield concepts are almost impossible to balance well, short of giving them a built-in Hull Mod that makes them virtually immune to EMP.  A pack of Thunders destroys shieldless ships easily, for example, and Xyphos or a pack of Wolves with Ion Beams, well.

And then there's what happens if they cannot get into range against stuff with Beams.

Giving a Faction broken weapons to make them "work" means that other Factions, and more importantly the player, will now have broken things to use.  Not like this is the first time a mod has done that, lol.

These were problems with the original design of Ironclads that weren't ever really addressed; the original ships were incredibly squishy and it only worked at all because it was a TC. 

Frankly, to make the RSF work... here'd be my suggestions:

1.  Built-in Hull Mod that gives them Beam / EMP resistance, but won't let them install Shields at all.
2.  Give the smaller ships Systems that allow them to choose the range of engagements, whether that means a range-boost or mobility.  It's about the only way to make them at all useful, and even then, it's dicey.
3.  Don't be afraid to keep piling on Armor until they can take some real punches.  Remember, Armor's temporary; Shields are renewable resources.  Balance in favor of survival, and do testing with fleet-scale engagements (I'd modify the Random Mission so that one side spawns RSF, the other is a grab-bag, let them all go at it and see how the dynamics feel).
4.  Don't fix the problems with weapons, Hull Mods that other ships can install, etc.  These are easy crutches that will make the mod broken in a serious game where we're expecting roughly-balanced factions.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 12:43:25 AM by xenoargh »
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TrashMan

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Re: [0.9.1]STEELCLAD v1.0.6 ( 6.06.2019) - please move to MODS
« Reply #226 on: June 11, 2019, 08:22:34 AM »

Given that a makeshift shield is trash and RSF have bad flux/disspiation, I don't see the need to block it's installment.
I'm thinking of giving them all shields, but crappy ones.
I'm already tweaking their weapon to make them less flux efficient and boosting the flux on RSF ship to compensate a bit.

The thing that makes balancing harder is that most armor-related hulmods stopped working. I have been looking at them forever but I cannot find anything wrong and it's driving me crazy. I have armor-related hulmods that work, and comparing the code, all looks OK.
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xenoargh

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Re: [0.9.1]STEELCLAD v1.0.6 ( 6.06.2019) - please move to MODS
« Reply #227 on: June 11, 2019, 09:43:47 AM »

Yeah, all those things may work out; that's essentially how Low Tech works. 

To make them genuinely interesting without shields, that's the hard part.  I remember really struggling with that with the Glaug; they had a self-repair mechanic that was kind of cool, but it only worked if they survived long enough to actually get to repair; the thing about this game is that once stuff gets through Armor, TTK is quite short, usually.

"Stopped working" is pretty vague; usually that means crashy-crashy, but I presume we're talking about the in-game effect not being correct. 

I presume you're compiling your code, not just leaving it loose?  If  you want, post one of the examples that's not working properly, I'll be happy to take a look.
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Anysy

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Re: [0.9.1]STEELCLAD v1.0.6 ( 6.06.2019) - please move to MODS
« Reply #228 on: June 11, 2019, 12:12:07 PM »

ingame 'powered armor' 'deflectors' hull mods should bridge the gap, but they seem uninstallable at the moment. In the older versions, these were a rather strong, but somewhat costly inclusion that generally made rsf ships extremely competitive. Its hard to say what might be needed if these are working.

Most of the rsf seems to be built around the concept of surviving one engagement - the accelerated ammo feeders tend to provide a very substantial burst potential, but the mechanical limits of armor and the frankly sluggish fleet seem to counterbalance that. Additionally, rsf weapons tend to be short on magazine capacity (and thus, staying power) over other weapons, making the accelerated ammo feeders significantly reduce actual available combat time.

If the goal is to make them stand on the power of armor and reload burst windows, giving them enough speed to dictate engagements usually an answer, though speed in starfarer is generally stronger than any other stat overall. Their design is also somewhat that of a traditional slow but bulky fleet, so it doesnt really fit thematically much, but that isnt the worst thing. As mentioned though, armor tends to work better on bigger ships than smaller ones, perhaps this would only need to particularly affect the smaller ones. rsf ships using low flux weapons also tends to mean they get low flux speed boost (with skills) relatively easily, but this is still an investment just to make them 'work'.

I recall there was some work previously on alternate shield types, though I am not sure if any current mods implement them? Giving them a shield slot version of the dampener field for example would help extend armor's usefulness substantially. As mentioned, a repair system that feels functional and usable would go a long way, but I am not sure how to make that a reality. Maybe a sort of 'replacement armor plates' use limited system that repairs some large amount of armor instantly? This at least puts rsf ships in a place where they can take multiple engagements in a battle, then do a limited retreat to start a new engagement with those charges restored?

As for the weapons, making them rely on the rsf's integrated ammo feed system somehow is a bit heavy handed but possibly needed. This at least allows the flux costs to be the low overall, forcing the player to be picky about using non-rsf (and thus, flux heavy) guns on a flux limited ship. Improved magazine loading for ballistics is probably the ideal extra thing to include here, as it already mostly fits within lore. The issue of course is some other weapons (notably, the railguns) are actually pretty good on rsf ships already due to their ability to dictate space with the improved rate of fire and range.

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peterispete

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Re: [0.9.1]STEELCLAD v1.0.6 ( 6.06.2019) - please move to MODS
« Reply #229 on: June 11, 2019, 12:55:03 PM »

It looks like those hullmods are uninstallable because the code checking if each hullmod is valid excludes the hullmod itself. For example, PoweredArmour.java contains the following code:
Spoiler
@Override
   public boolean isApplicableToShip(ShipAPI ship) {
      return
      ((!ship.getVariant().getHullMods().contains("PoweredArmour")) &&
      (!ship.getVariant().getHullMods().contains("EnergyAbsorbers")) &&
      (!ship.getVariant().getHullMods().contains("comp_armor")) &&
      (!ship.getVariant().getHullMods().contains("Deflectors")));
   }
[close]
I'm not sure when isApplicableToShip is called exactly, but it automatically excludes/removes the hullmod if any of the above are already on the ship. Because Powered Armour = Powered Armour, the hullmod gets kicked off the list every time it is selected. I made it installable by removing the bit of code that checks for it, which shouldn't affect anything in a bad way because the game doesn't allow hullmods to be installed twice regardless of if isApplicableToShip gets overridden. Here's an example of the change:
Spoiler
@Override
   public boolean isApplicableToShip(ShipAPI ship) {
      return
      ((!ship.getVariant().getHullMods().contains("EnergyAbsorbers")) &&
      (!ship.getVariant().getHullMods().contains("comp_armor")) &&
      (!ship.getVariant().getHullMods().contains("Deflectors")));
   }
[close]
I tested it on an RSF battleship in the simulator and now Energy Absorbers, comp armor, and Deflectors can't be installed alongside it, as intended, but Powered Armour doesn't accidentally break itself.
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Recklessimpulse

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Re: [0.9.1]STEELCLAD v1.0.6 ( 6.06.2019) - please move to MODS
« Reply #230 on: June 11, 2019, 05:59:32 PM »

What about armor attachments for the smaller ships, similar to what a low tech fortress has. Look at how much shield damage a frigate takes and give the armour shields that much health.
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TrashMan

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Re: [0.9.1]STEELCLAD v1.0.6 ( 6.06.2019) - please move to MODS
« Reply #231 on: June 12, 2019, 02:15:25 AM »

Yeah, all those things may work out; that's essentially how Low Tech works. 

To make them genuinely interesting without shields, that's the hard part.  I remember really struggling with that with the Glaug; they had a self-repair mechanic that was kind of cool, but it only worked if they survived long enough to actually get to repair; the thing about this game is that once stuff gets through Armor, TTK is quite short, usually.

Yes, I have both a hull repair AND an armor repair module (2 separate ones), and bigger RSF ships tend to be far more resillient if you install them, but it comes at the cost of the already poor flux

Quote
"Stopped working" is pretty vague; usually that means crashy-crashy, but I presume we're talking about the in-game effect not being correct. 

I presume you're compiling your code, not just leaving it loose?  If  you want, post one of the examples that's not working properly, I'll be happy to take a look.

I posted all of the code in the Misc Modding Question thread a few days ago - page 308.
Basically, the hullmods show up in the list as available/installable, but when you click on them nothing happens and they do not get applied or installed.
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vorpal+5

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Re: [0.9.1]STEELCLAD v1.0.6 ( 6.06.2019) - please move to MODS
« Reply #232 on: June 12, 2019, 06:09:11 AM »

I don't see why RSF need a buff. They chew my ISA ships (which are made of paper despite having good shields) easily.
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TrashMan

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Re: [0.9.1]STEELCLAD v1.0.6 ( 6.06.2019) - please move to MODS
« Reply #233 on: June 13, 2019, 12:29:18 AM »

It looks like those hullmods are uninstallable because the code checking if each hullmod is valid excludes the hullmod itself.
 
I tested it on an RSF battleship in the simulator and now Energy Absorbers, comp armor, and Deflectors can't be installed alongside it, as intended, but Powered Armour doesn't accidentally break itself.

Weird. I'm quite sure the hullmod that works also has the same check.
But if that was the problem, it's an easy fix and one less thing I have to worry about.
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TrashMan

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Re: [0.9.1]STEELCLAD v1.0.7 ( 13.06.2019) - please move to MODS
« Reply #234 on: June 13, 2019, 06:54:35 AM »

New version up.

fixes and balance tweaks.
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Anysy

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Re: [0.9.1]STEELCLAD v1.0.7 ( 13.06.2019) - please move to MODS
« Reply #235 on: June 14, 2019, 11:52:40 AM »

Im getting a error, no graphics/weapons/vns_supergatt_hard.png, on a full fresh download. Copying vns_supergatt_base.png for now.
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TrashMan

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Re: [0.9.1]STEELCLAD v1.0.7 ( 13.06.2019) - please move to MODS
« Reply #236 on: June 14, 2019, 12:52:41 PM »

I forgot about that. Yeah, that's basically the same, just a bit shifted.

I'd upload it, but it's on my other computer, so it will have to wait a bit
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Anysy

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Re: [0.9.1]STEELCLAD v1.0.7 ( 13.06.2019) - please move to MODS
« Reply #237 on: June 14, 2019, 07:44:56 PM »

overburner (and burn regulator) conflicts with itself as well, similar to the armor hullmods. (idk if you have a better way you want mimor bug reports like this listed I dont think i saw a github or similar). I looked through a couple others and I didnt see any similar incompatibilities so hopefully this is the last one?
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vorpal+5

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Re: [0.9.1]STEELCLAD v1.0.7 ( 13.06.2019) - please move to MODS
« Reply #238 on: June 14, 2019, 08:38:47 PM »

@Trashman

I have played some significant hours with the ISA ships. As I said, despite having good shields, anything under battleship is made of paper. But that's not the subject of my post.

Civilian ships:
Can you please make a comparison between the stats of the  transports/tankers ships of ISA and the ones of Vanilla? Then you should see that you can safely give a +2 burn speed and sometime extra fuel capacity (for tankers) so they stay competitive. Currently they are super slow, so nobody will want them. Also some lack cargo and some lack fuel capacity. Check these two stats too.

As for military ship, the only one that I see having an issue is the Vulture carrier, you can up his burn speed to 9 so it stays competitive with Vanilla carrier.
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TrashMan

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Re: [0.9.1]STEELCLAD v1.0.7 ( 13.06.2019) - please move to MODS
« Reply #239 on: June 15, 2019, 03:27:24 AM »

OK, I will look into it and give some speed/cargo boosts.

Fun Fact - the Vulture and all WDW designs (blue/black ships with energy absorbers) were originally a separate faction. I just turned them into a ISA/UIN special anti-alien task force (since aliens use energy weapons)
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