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Author Topic: [0.9.1a]STEELCLAD v1.0.25c ( 17.11.2019)  (Read 159050 times)

TrashMan

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Re: [0.8.1a]STEELCLAD v0.3 (Ironclads revival) - 20.08.2017
« Reply #120 on: August 22, 2017, 11:37:07 PM »

Well, I just realized XLE doesn't get any systems generated. Don't know why, could be some coded limit.
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A Random Jolteon

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Re: [0.8.1a]STEELCLAD v0.3 (Ironclads revival) - 20.08.2017
« Reply #121 on: August 23, 2017, 01:38:52 PM »

All right, I have played a little with FFS (I will never stop laughing at that XD). There is some balance issues, but those can be fiddled with. There are really only two issues I see needing to be fixed first. Keep in mind this is purely a first impressions, I haven't actually been able to do TOO much. (I am also using Console Commands to get credits, and jump to systems)

1: XLE. You already know this (I saw your post) but they don't have a planet. ISA has a LOT, so if you need I recommend taking a couple from them and giving the XLE the planets in between ISA and RF...the Russian dudes. There is a nebula just north of the Vanilla area, that is the area I am talking about.

2: Acceleration/Speed/Burn level. This...is just weird to me. I played the Battle of Titans mission for VNS, and holy heck is the player ship fast. And the Zero Flux boost is WAY OP. I recommend taking a serious look all across the board for every ship, and maybe the fighters/bombers. (They just seem a little slow, but may just be me) I also recommend taking a look at the Burn Speeds. I don't know very much about them, but I have yet to get to burn level 18...And I have a mostly Frigate/Gunship fleet, with a couple destroyers.

One last thing: These no flux/second guns are great, but a LITTLE strong when you consider that you could get a wall of fire, and still have a zero flux speed boost. I recommend giving at least 2 flux/second for non-pd guns to negate this.
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TrashMan

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Re: [0.8.1a]STEELCLAD v0.3 (Ironclads revival) - 20.08.2017
« Reply #122 on: August 23, 2017, 10:59:43 PM »

Yeah, originally Ironcalds was a TC, so the ships were balanced against themselves, not against core ships. The old Ironclads also didn't generate hyperspace storms and the universe was smaller, so that's why the burn levels are smaller.

SC ships in general have way lower armor and hull values - especially for smaller and civilian ships. The armor value a common SMALL freighter has in core is equal to a cruiser in SC. I'll have to re-balance all of that. But SC ships do seem to have more guns in general.

Yeah, I got my work cut out for me....


P.s. - the Battleship in Battle of Titans - it's a fast battleship, it's supposed to be fast. The dreadnought will murder if you if it can lock you down

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A Random Jolteon

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Re: [0.8.1a]STEELCLAD v0.3 (Ironclads revival) - 20.08.2017
« Reply #123 on: August 24, 2017, 07:06:26 AM »

Yeah, originally Ironcalds was a TC, so the ships were balanced against themselves, not against core ships. The old Ironclads also didn't generate hyperspace storms and the universe was smaller, so that's why the burn levels are smaller.

SC ships in general have way lower armor and hull values - especially for smaller and civilian ships. The armor value a common SMALL freighter has in core is equal to a cruiser in SC. I'll have to re-balance all of that. But SC ships do seem to have more guns in general.

Yeah, I got my work cut out for me....


P.s. - the Battleship in Battle of Titans - it's a fast battleship, it's supposed to be fast. The dreadnought will murder if you if it can lock you down


You can cut down a LOT of the work by simply not letting Vanilla factions in, at least for a while (or keep as a total conversion until you have more balanced values). I would honestly prefer not having  Vanilla factions right now...Though you can have an option that lets the Vanilla factions in or not, that would actually be cool.

As for the battleship: In that case it's fair enough...though slowing down when sideways is a pain, I can live with that. (Besides, gotta make stuff difficult for a ship that can legit murder an vanilla fleet, and then two Onslaughts after all! ;)...Now if only I could kill that stupid paragon...)
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A Random Jolteon

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Re: [0.8.1a]STEELCLAD v0.3 (Ironclads revival) - 20.08.2017
« Reply #124 on: August 24, 2017, 04:08:43 PM »

Well now. Didn't think I would have to do this quite so soon. I planned on doing a play through and giving you information on it every few days, and I decided to start with RSF. I used Console commands to adjust my relations with the RSF to 80 (command "adjustrelation RSF 80"). Went to get the commission twice, and got it...twice. And lost it, instantly, twice. Yeah, something is bugged with it. No real problem as I can just spawn in the needed ships, but I would prefer not to as that's a little bit of fun taken away.

This is currently the ONLY bug that I have found, so...yeah. Till I actually do stuff with my play through I will list bugs right down here...no further. NOT THAT LOW YA DINGUS! Yeah Yeah, there.
Spoiler
Bug 1: RSF commission causes relation loss. (Loss level: 50:hostile)
Bug 2: AI Fleets (Only RSF confirmed) will pursue allied fleets as if they were a player fleet.
Bug 3: (information is minimal) Destroying a SteelClad fleet causes you to get stuck in the battle finished screen.
[close]

Edit: I have the commission now. I dunno how only thing I did differently was use the "SetCommission" command, and that had the same results when I looked.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 01:18:27 PM by A Random Jolteon »
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MesoTroniK

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Re: [0.8.1a]STEELCLAD v0.3 (Ironclads revival) - 20.08.2017
« Reply #125 on: August 24, 2017, 04:28:20 PM »

I'll have to re-balance all of that. But SC ships do seem to have more guns in general.

Unless you remove many weapon slots on many ships (as a major step of their overall rebalance). SteelClads will *never* balance in a environment outside of the Total Conversion they were originally designed for. Cruisers with 3 large energy hardpoints, and ample turrets etc is completely batshit insane and that is just one example of many :)

A Random Jolteon

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Re: [0.8.1a]STEELCLAD v0.3 (Ironclads revival) - 20.08.2017
« Reply #126 on: August 24, 2017, 05:02:05 PM »

I'll have to re-balance all of that. But SC ships do seem to have more guns in general.

Unless you remove many weapon slots on many ships (as a major step of their overall rebalance). SteelClads will *never* balance in a environment outside of the Total Conversion they were originally designed for. Cruisers with 3 large energy hardpoints, and ample turrets etc is completely batshit insane and that is just one example of many :)
Tis a very good point fair lad, but taking those away will make the Lord of Ludicrous Firepower mad...I seriously love it though...I do hope the number of guns doesn't get nerfed too hard at the very least.
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MesoTroniK

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Re: [0.8.1a]STEELCLAD v0.3 (Ironclads revival) - 20.08.2017
« Reply #127 on: August 24, 2017, 05:23:37 PM »

An alternative way to do it, would be to build in weapons on ships that are over-gunned, and balance the ship around that fact. That would be tricky though, and the smarter move is really to declaw them a bit as needed.

A Random Jolteon

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Re: [0.8.1a]STEELCLAD v0.3 (Ironclads revival) - 20.08.2017
« Reply #128 on: August 24, 2017, 05:52:38 PM »

An alternative way to do it, would be to build in weapons on ships that are over-gunned, and balance the ship around that fact. That would be tricky though, and the smarter move is really to declaw them a bit as needed.
Hmm...What about replacing some of those large mounts with built in weapons for that faction? For example: replacing a large mount on the Kursk mod.3 with a built in missile weapon, and the other large mount for a ballistic weapon?
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MesoTroniK

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Re: [0.8.1a]STEELCLAD v0.3 (Ironclads revival) - 20.08.2017
« Reply #129 on: August 24, 2017, 07:04:17 PM »

That is exactly what I meant, in an overall broad manner of speaking. Ships that have too many weapons, get some modular slots replaced with built-ins that are a bit weak or specialized and the ship balanced for that. Yea that would work fine.

If this was my project, I would probably use both methods. Some modular slots get built-ins in their place, others just get outright removed until all the ships are more or less vanilla compliant balance wise.

TrashMan

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Re: [0.8.1a]STEELCLAD v0.3 (Ironclads revival) - 20.08.2017
« Reply #130 on: August 24, 2017, 11:38:47 PM »

While I have a separate ship_data file where I normalized various values, I'm now thinking I best leave the values.

SS ships have considerably lower hull and armor values, so I guess that it itself balances out more weapons - they simply don't have the staying power. I still don't know exactly what to do in regards to balance with vanilla.

If I can get my own sectorgen going, then maybe I can do a proper TC.
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MesoTroniK

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Re: [0.8.1a]STEELCLAD v0.3 (Ironclads revival) - 20.08.2017
« Reply #131 on: August 25, 2017, 02:27:56 AM »

SS ships have considerably lower hull and armor values, so I guess that it itself balances out more weapons - they simply don't have the staying power. I still don't know exactly what to do in regards to balance with vanilla.

Balancing via extremes is a Bad Idea in vanilla, it can sort of work in a TC where that is the standard though. And no, things like cruisers with 3 large energy slots and good number of turrets too is not going to balance out the ships poor durability. That sort of ship can instant alpha strike nuke most anything, and that isn't very fun. I know I keep bringing up that one example, but it is the most obvious one. There are lots of things like that in the mod.

TrashMan

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Re: [0.8.1a]STEELCLAD v0.3 (Ironclads revival) - 20.08.2017
« Reply #132 on: August 25, 2017, 02:48:36 AM »

I figured out why XLE isn't getting planets.

Will update the data files later.


That said, for the first balance pass I think I'll double deployment (and other) costs for SC ships.

Messing with the turret numbers means I have to edit all the hulls, all the variants (that alone would take forever, just to match up what gun I removed with what slot) and probably edit the graphics.

This was never supposed to be a not-TC, the current state of affairs is nothing more than a compromise to have the factions playable.


P.S.
I didn't yet look at weapon balance. At a glance, SC weapons seem comparable of weaker.
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A Random Jolteon

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Re: [0.8.1a]STEELCLAD v0.3 (Ironclads revival) - 20.08.2017
« Reply #133 on: August 25, 2017, 06:49:25 AM »

I figured out why XLE isn't getting planets.

Will update the data files later.


That said, for the first balance pass I think I'll double deployment (and other) costs for SC ships.

Messing with the turret numbers means I have to edit all the hulls, all the variants (that alone would take forever, just to match up what gun I removed with what slot) and probably edit the graphics.

This was never supposed to be a not-TC, the current state of affairs is nothing more than a compromise to have the factions playable.


P.S.
I didn't yet look at weapon balance. At a glance, SC weapons seem comparable of weaker.
I would say 1.7 deployment cost for the RSF since they don't have shields, but have a lot of guns and a lot of armor. This does make them really tough, but are vulnerable to torpedoes and torp bombers. I think that'll be a fairer balance for them than a flat double deployment cost all across the board.
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TrashMan

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Re: [0.8.1a]STEELCLAD v0.3 (Ironclads revival) - 20.08.2017
« Reply #134 on: August 25, 2017, 10:54:50 AM »

Doing some comparisons now

PARAGON - 18000 Hull, 1500 armor, 25000 flux, 1250 diss, 30 speed - 4 large, 6 medium, 13 small

ISA Michigan battleship - 6500 Hull, 650 armor, 12000 flux, 1200 diss, 45 speed - 4 large, 11 med, 14 small

RSF Moscow battleship - 16000 hull, 2400 armor, 7200 flux (NO SHIELDS), 720 diss, 40 speed - 4(8?) large, 11 med, 8 small

UIN Great Britain battleship - 12000 hull, 1200 armor, 6000 flux, 1200 diss, 20 speed - 2fixed +3 large, 10 med, 16 small

XLE Great Dragon battleship - 14000 hull, 1400 armor, 120000 flux, 600 diss, 40 speed - (1fixed+4) large, 7 medium 9 small

VNS Paladin (A) battleship - 10000 hull, 1100 armor, 9000 flux, 1500 diss, 50 speed - (2+2fixed) large, 12 med, 9 small


VNS Archangel Heavy Battleship (supership, 100 deployment points) - 12500 hull, 1500 armor, 12500 flux, 2000 diss, 45 speed - 5 large (system), 17 med, 21 small



Seems like the unbalance is at the destroyer/cruiser level (SC frigates barely have an average of 1000 flux, vanilla have an average of 2200)


EDIT:
working on making it Nexirilian compaible.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 11:00:15 AM by TrashMan »
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