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[CrashToDesktop]

I think we all know what we really want though: freaking hyperspace monsters that eat fleets.

I approve of Deep Hyperspace Krakens.

[BillyRueben]

The biggest dangers in hyperspace is player not bringing enough fuel and enemies ambushing the player.  Those are fine.

Is it? Getting ambushed happens all of never with S-Burn, and not bringing enough fuel hardly ever happens as long as you pay attention. This just turns the game in to "select system, lay in course, walk away for 90 seconds". Why not just get rid of it free movement hyperspace and move to a point to point hyperspace travel like FTL if there aren't going to be any real dangers or interactions?

[Megas]

@ orost:  Storms can also be frustrating because they also eat too many supplies.  That is almost on par with losing rare ships pre-0.8, especially if player misses a deadline due to time lost.  Before 0.8, it was possible to get wall-to-wall storms at some places.  Oh, there is a storm in front of me, no problem.  Uh oh, there are more storms lighting up in the path around it, and I won't make it time, and I need to wait days or burn through the storms.  I am deep in deep hyperspace, storm lights up around me.  Okay, I will wait it out.  Uh oh!  Another storm is lighting up where I am at, and the first storms are not going away.  I am caught and my fleet is ruined!  Forget this!  Reload game.  Oh, no storms this time?  Nice, proceeds to destination.  Admittedly, that is uncommon, and I usually see that when I hang around Luddic space (which was stupid of me since Hegemony has better loot).

This game has a well-polished combat engine despite some annoying quirks.  The game elements should be a means to the end, which is combat.

S-Burn making storms trivial is a wonderful accident, even if Alex did not intend that.

Re: Space Monsters
When your fleet is small, enemy fleets are good enough.  When your fleet is big, everyone runs away, except killer robots (Remnants), but they seem to sleep inside systems.

The biggest dangers in hyperspace is player not bringing enough fuel and enemies ambushing the player.  Those are fine.

Is it? Getting ambushed happens all of never with S-Burn, and not bringing enough fuel hardly ever happens as long as you pay attention. This just turns the game in to "select system, lay in course, walk away for 90 seconds". Why not just get rid of it free movement hyperspace and move to a point to point hyperspace travel like FTL if there aren't going to be any real dangers or interactions?

Admittedly, getting ambush is unlikely for a big enough fleet.  (The few times I got ambushed with S-Burn on was in system, usually with Remnants.)  Most things are small and run away, S-Burn or not.  As for fuel, maybe, maybe not.  If something unexpected happens (like finding a rare capital ship) or just dumb pilot error (yes, it happens even to otherwise competent players despite theory assuming humans always play perfectly), player who thought he had enough fuel might not.

[TrashMan]

How about different types of storm? Color-coded for your convenience.
Some would do hull damage, some would slow you considerably, some would disable shields while in them.

That way even the scenario of "game generated 10 storms" would be managable, since not all would be of the same severity, thus opening up more potential paths.



As for space monsters - Anyone play SOTS and encountered the Specters?

[Gothars]

There is already a thread about SB, but I wanted to focus specifically on its interaction with hyperspace terrain.

The design goal of the terrain is to make the player actively participate in travel, seeking clear routes instead of flying to their destination in a straight line. However, between SB and Navigation perks, this incentive has been removed. If you're SBing with Navigation 3, deep hyperspace slows you down only a tiny bit or not at all and storms slow you only a little, and you'll punch through them so quickly you'll take very little CR damage. It's easier, faster *and* cheaper to just lay in course, turn SB on and take a nap rather than try to actually navigate.

Here are some numbers for a small fleet with base burn 9. Highlighted in red are the numbers that I think are a problem.



Terrain penalties shrink dramatically as you stack bonuses and become almost negligible with all of them.

I propose the following changes:

* Apply hyperspace storm speed reduction after the SB bonus, not before, to reduce SB's impact on speeds in storms
* Replace the +5 burn perk at Navigation 3 with something else. With it, it's possible to bump against the burn 20 cap, and once you're capped, small penalties become irrelevant. (Maybe just straight-up remove it. Transverse Jump is a big enough deal that I'd consider getting Navigation 3 just for it alone.)

With those, the table looks like this:



Navigation 1 still decently reduces terrain impact, and SB still makes travel in clear space much faster, but cannot be used to trivially punch through storms.

Very good analyses. I agree with your identification of the problem and with your proposed solution.


I also think that hyper space needs more stuff do make it more interesting, but I'm sure we will get there eventually.

[Serenitis]

The problems with storms are:

They are not very visible until they are active and flashing away.
I've been told previously that they glow for a time before flashing, but I have not seen this. Admitedly I have less than stellar vision.

They have a very fuzzy and variable boundary for hit detection.
Sometimes you can be inside a flashing cloud and see no ill effects, but sometimes (and far more likely) you can avoid the flashing cloud and still get snagged.

They hit very very hard.
It is fairly common to get a CR drain of -50 or greater for even a small fleet, and since they slow you down as well this greatly magnifies the effect.

They are pervasive.
As in absolutely everywhere, and they seem to like accumulating into huge expanses of impassable tumult.

As a result I am very hesitant to fly into any deep hyperspace area without savescumming. It's like walking into a minefield with no means to detect said mines.
I don't nescessarily have a problem with difficult terrian existing, but why does it have to feel so punitive?

[Megas]

They are not very visible until they are active and flashing away.
I've been told previously that they glow for a time before flashing, but I have not seen this. Admitedly I have less than stellar vision.

The glow is true, but it is a bit subtle, and players who do not know exactly what to look for may not notice it.  Also, the time between when storms start glowing and when they start firing is short.  Player with a slow enough fleet and see a patch or three light up underneath them might not be able to escape in time even if they see a storm coming.

[Argonaut]

Non-interactive obstacles will never be fun. An enemy interacts with you during combat and pursuit. The economy and markets interact richly with price changes and various modifiers. Hyperspace clouds are just there to be in your way, while storms need to be spotted and predicted and are therefore slightly more fun.
If hyperspace has to be "made more fun" by adding fun-sounding features like Krakens or by removing its non-interactive obstacles (through S-Burn), then it is obvious it doesn't really have a reason to exist.

I assume the devs want HS to be an immersive travel mechanic, but for that many examples of the same system exist. One is "Pirates of the Caribbean" by Akella. The sea travel mechanic is identical to Starsector's Hyperspace, and it even has storms (more dangerous and interactive)... however it doesn't have clouds to block the way. Players dodge pirates and storms or attack convoys, but otherwise travel is unimpeded and feels immersive, because it looks and sounds like traveling on the open sea, not in some mystical "alternative space".



Conversely the "mystical alternative space" atmosphere works in Star Control 2 because it is more lonely and doesn't have obstacles in it. When a rare interaction occurs in it, it's usually time to panic, because the identity of the enemy is not immediately visible. What will those dark radar blips be? Silly Xenos or horrible eldritch horrors from beyond?

[Histidine]

I'm in favour of the changes in the OP.

But I also wouldn't mind if hyperspace storms were just axed completely and replaced with something else that makes going off the beaten track risky.*
Or even just make deep hyper impassable, like mountains on land (although this breaks the fuel range prediction).

*Why I'm not fond of hyper storms:

Spoiler

When it comes to micromanagement in strategy games and the like, my policy is the "five-year-old" rule: If the task is simple enough that I could reliably delegate it to a five-year-old, I don't want to do it myself.

Dodging hyper storms is a five-year-old task. See big flashy blob in front, veer to the side, resume course afterwards. Unless the storms are widespread enough that I'd prefer to stop and wait them out, but that's not a thing we really want to exist.
And if you don't evade them, you risk suffering a really punitive CR loss, which at best is a drain on credits and at worst can leave the fleet without enough supplies to complete an exploration mission.
At least with things like pirate ambushes, there's more complex decisions involved, nonzero potential reward, and you get some combat out of it (still the most interesting part of the game).

[close]

[ChaseBears]

It's terrain. The choice comes from whether you want to risk the storms or not, possibly in aid of dodging a very strong fleet that's after you.

[CrashToDesktop]

Huh, why don't we have giant Hyperspace clouds and Storms that roll through the system like weather?  That way if you do want to make good time, you'll have to tweak the helm every now and again.  Oh, and Storms should be much, much larger, as in, at least 10 lightyears across of just solid storm - that oughta keep you away from them.

[ChaseBears]

I do like that idea. Maybe you take shelter in a system just to avoid the storm.  The problem is if you dont make it out of the storm in time you maybe just lose the game.

[CrashToDesktop]

I do like that idea. Maybe you take shelter in a system just to avoid the storm.  The problem is if you dont make it out of the storm in time you maybe just lose the game.

I suppose having access to current hyperspace weather radar and weather forecast might be useful.