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Author Topic: Which Vanilla Faction has the most powerful/fun ships?  (Read 33162 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Which Vanilla Faction has the most powerful/fun ships?
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2017, 12:29:09 PM »

Meanwhile, I did a sim test with all combat skills maxed, and my solo ships did not do significantly better than unskilled ships.  Ships with shot range disadvantage were still outranged and outgunned, and they were not fast enough to avoid getting shot at.  They may have lived a bit longer, but the end result was the same.  (I have not tried Hyperion or Paragon yet, but I think conventional ships will suffer.)  I hate to say it, but fleet action, especially with carrier support is probably the best combat power in 0.8.  Player should delegate the combat stuff to officers, and player should focus on fleet skills, and maybe a few campaign luxuries.

Of course Medusa is not an ultimate endgame ship. It's Onslaught/Paragon for direct combat. And fleet action is important.
But you still can take core fleet-wide skills and significant chunk of playership skills (if you entirely ignore overmap utility).
And kill about as many enemies as rest of your fleet, or more, in every fight.

The AI can't benefit from skill tree passive stacking as well as a player can (officiers too random, wont get everything you can get with a player focused build)

Out of 5 Carrier officers in my fleet 2 have all 3 skills maxed, 3 have only 2 skills maxed (and entirely lack 3rd skill). Not exactly optimal, but not too far either. Could retrain replacements till I get it right too (but they do well enough as is).
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StarGibbon

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Re: Which Vanilla Faction has the most powerful/fun ships?
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2017, 01:07:42 PM »


The AI can't benefit from skill tree passive stacking as well as a player can (officers too random, wont get everything you can get with a player focused build)

Out of 5 Carrier officers in my fleet 2 have all 3 skills maxed, 3 have only 2 skills maxed (and entirely lack 3rd skill). Not exactly optimal, but not too far either. Could retrain replacements till I get it right too (but they do well enough as is).

Sure, but by the time the game sees fit to give your officers access to Fighter buffs( whereas the player can max these almost immediately),  by that time will have moved onto other optimal choices for the ship at hand in the combat and tech trees, still making them the best person to sit in the chair.  If you're going to go in on the leadership tree, best to go all in.  Doesn't make sense to take the fleetwide leadership buffs for fighters, then waste a spot for a non-carrier (tempests are technically carriers!).  I mean sure, I could instead park myself in a souped up combat destroyer or cruiser, but it would be a downgrade in killing power (more fun to fly though, sure).

Unless you want to make the case that any other single ship, even fully maxed in the combat tree, delivers the power and versatility carriers do in .8--because I don't see it. They kill big slow ships. They kill fast small ships.  They kill retreating ships. They kill everything that moves from a position of relative safety.  If youre going to buff them at all, might as well maximize the advantage.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 01:13:09 PM by StarGibbon »
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Thaago

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Re: Which Vanilla Faction has the most powerful/fun ships?
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2017, 01:51:46 PM »

...

Unless you want to make the case that any other single ship, even fully maxed in the combat tree, delivers the power and versatility carriers do in .8--because I don't see it. They kill big slow ships. They kill fast small ships.  They kill retreating ships. They kill everything that moves from a position of relative safety.  If youre going to buff them at all, might as well maximize the advantage.

I've been flying around in a Harbringer, and it depends on the combat skills. With the proper ones, it is better than any carrier cruiser sized or below. 3x Ion Pulser, unstable injector, flux resistant conduits, hardened subsystems: I can easily use to solo any ship but the Paragon and possibly Hyperion if its being annoying. More than that however is its potent support ability - it has a long enough range that, if I see an AI ship engaging an enemy, I can just pop off a quick +50% damage to that enemy while flying off to another target.

So far I see carriers as very powerful, but I think the AI does a fine job running them. They don't particularly benefit from my piloting, while combat ships do.
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StarGibbon

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Re: Which Vanilla Faction has the most powerful/fun ships?
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2017, 02:36:11 PM »



So far I see carriers as very powerful, but I think the AI does a fine job running them. They don't particularly benefit from my piloting, while combat ships do.

I don't dispute player piloting skill benefits other ships more, as Ive already stated--other ships *need* player skill more.  But the Leadership tree contains fleet-wide Carrier buffs that officers dont get, that get multiplied for every carrier you have in your fleet. If you're going to dip into leadership to get that, obviously you're building a fleet around carrier power, and you get the most out of it by adding more carriers.  In that scenario, your fleet benefits more from you in the driver seat of a carrier most of the time, because you can stack more buffs, rapidly, and much more intelligently than a scattershot officer skill selection. And you can still make far better decisions than the AI will in your place on the battlefield.

If all you want to do is carry around a single support carrier, then yeah, theres no need for the leadership tree--officer skill and hull mods will do just fine. If you're going all in on carriers, you benefit more from adding more carriers, and you may as well be in the main seat most of the time, in something like a Heron that is fast enough and capable enough to contribute more than fighter spam.   Anything else would be a downgrade for your fleet--you simply dont need other ships.
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Megas

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Re: Which Vanilla Faction has the most powerful/fun ships?
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2017, 02:56:06 PM »

Of course Medusa is not an ultimate endgame ship. It's Onslaught/Paragon for direct combat. And fleet action is important.
But you still can take core fleet-wide skills and significant chunk of playership skills (if you entirely ignore overmap utility).
And kill about as many enemies as rest of your fleet, or more, in every fight.
I get that, but, before 0.8, skilled Medusa can slaughter SIM capitals in a one-on-one duel without breaking much of a sweat.  Today, Medusa will struggle against a cruiser (at least against Eagle and Aurora), skills or not, let alone a capital.  Well, I am not sure how well max combat skills Medusa will do, but Medusa with partial skills does not cut it.

Also, during 0.7x, max skills battleship can solo everything thrown at it by itself.  Today, I have my doubts.  While I have not played enough to afford capitals, I would not be surprised if Onslaught is incapable of soloing everything, much like how the Enforcer has fallen.  I have no idea how well a skilled Paragon will do.  (I am interested to see what Legion can do.)
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Thaago

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Re: Which Vanilla Faction has the most powerful/fun ships?
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2017, 04:07:52 PM »



... If you're going to dip into leadership to get that, obviously you're building a fleet around carrier power, ...

I disagree with this particular point, because leadership is a good tree even without the carrier parts. Having 10 officers is a big bonus for direct fire ships, as is +15% CR to all ships (probably the single most powerful skill in the entire tree). I have only 2 Drovers giving fighter cover to my fleet, but I see my 3 point investment in the fleetwide carrier skill as well worth it even without focusing. If I get more officers with carrier skills, I'll add more carriers.

I'm personally finding a mixture of direct fire and carriers to be the most effective, because its more resistant to being outnumbered. Carriers are great when you have parity, but, at least in my experience, don't handle being outnumbered well. Which is how I personally fight.
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NinjaPirate

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Re: Which Vanilla Faction has the most powerful/fun ships?
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2017, 04:10:28 PM »

Is there a wiki page that lists the Vanilla ships?
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NinjaPirate

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Re: Which Vanilla Faction has the most powerful/fun ships?
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2017, 04:12:07 PM »

Is there a wiki page that lists the Vanilla ships?

Yes there is, I just had to scroll down two posts. :)
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StarGibbon

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Re: Which Vanilla Faction has the most powerful/fun ships?
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2017, 04:30:01 PM »



I'm personally finding a mixture of direct fire and carriers to be the most effective, because its more resistant to being outnumbered. Carriers are great when you have parity, but, at least in my experience, don't handle being outnumbered well. Which is how I personally fight.

Ive never deployed more than 3 at once so far--a general loadout Heron and two specialized Drovers--unless you count tempests.  They were more than plenty to take out an Onslaught and its 10 ship support fleet of assorted Hedgemeony destroyers and frigates. Usually its just the Heron and a tempest to keep me from getting flanked if the opposing fleet has no cruisers.  I don't have nearly the player skill that some do--I'd never be able to put those kinds of numbers up with a similar cost cruiser.  I havent found a focused super-carrier fleet to be really hurting from "parity" issues, and few other ships have as much versatility in being able to kill fast ships and slow powerful ships with equal ease, or adapt to different enemies simply by swapping out their fighter bays.
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StarGibbon

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Re: Which Vanilla Faction has the most powerful/fun ships?
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2017, 07:07:04 PM »

Ok, my super carrier fleet 1 Heron, 2 Drover destroyers, an escort Tempest, and the Junk D-Wolf from the tutorial just took out with no losses:

 2 bullet sponge Mora cruisers spamming fighters of their own, A Falcon strike cruiser, a Hammerhead, and 7 support frigates. The Hammerhead did get away through.  That's  2 destroyers and a light cruiser, against two of the heaviest cruisers in the game who theoretically should have been able to counter my own fighter spam, another light cruiser, a destroyer, and roughly 2 to 1 odds.

I'm not saying a player better than me couldnt do even better with a dedicated gunboat (so please dont bother making that point, I concede it), but Im not buying this idea that properly specced carriers are only good if you have "parity", and aren't outgunned.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 07:20:03 PM by StarGibbon »
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Igncom1

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Re: Which Vanilla Faction has the most powerful/fun ships?
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2017, 07:12:55 PM »

I have personally found that even with heavy flak, my ships are frightened enough of fighters and bombers that a single carrier can often win 1 on 1 battles with ease. Especially if the carrier has decent guns of their own. A flak destroyer or cruiser is not enough to counter strike craft completely due to AI fear.

And I thought watching my AI allies fight wolf frigates or overclocked? frigates was painful. Distraction talons are a whole other deal.
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StarGibbon

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Re: Which Vanilla Faction has the most powerful/fun ships?
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2017, 07:26:33 PM »

I have personally found that even with heavy flak, my ships are frightened enough of fighters and bombers that a single carrier can often win 1 on 1 battles with ease. Especially if the carrier has decent guns of their own. A flak destroyer or cruiser is not enough to counter strike craft completely due to AI fear.

And I thought watching my AI allies fight wolf frigates or overclocked? frigates was painful. Distraction talons are a whole other deal.


Yeah, when I took out the Onslaught, I almost felt bad for it. It was like watching  the giant ape frantically swatting at the planes, only to get distracted and fall to its death. Every once in a while it would notice me and I had to dance back out of range ( which the Heron has the speed to do), but the AIs ability to focus through those swarms of fighters is severely impaired. I think the fighters kill from the distraction more than they do the damage.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 07:28:17 PM by StarGibbon »
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goduranus

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Re: Which Vanilla Faction has the most powerful/fun ships?
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2017, 10:00:03 PM »

I think the problem is also that firing your weapons on the fighters to kill them takes flux, but fighters firing weapons or replacing and rearming fighters take no flux for the carrier. So carriers=free flux.

That being said, a single carrier launching fighters to cover your battleship will effectively counter many bomber carriers on the enemy side. So Dominator+Drover with fighters>Astral with bombers.

Anyhow the most powerful ship is still the Afflictor with 2 dual Atropos+2 Reapers with expanded missile racks. With the skills and good piloting you kill 4 destroyers+8 frigates every time you deploy. Best if backed up by a Harbinger, with 3 Reapers+unstable injectors for blowing up capitals.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 12:38:14 AM by goduranus »
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StarGibbon

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Re: Which Vanilla Faction has the most powerful/fun ships?
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2017, 12:13:12 AM »

Well, Im wrapping up my carrier fleet. Would have loved to find an Astral to try out, but the game wont have it, and I'm now at level 40. None of my other officers maxed out their carrier skills by the time I hit 40, in part because I didn't need to deploy them as often.

For what it's worth, I tore up most capital ships (including an astral), and nothing that should be intuitively anti fighter like a Flak dominator gave me any trouble. The only thing that felt like a hard counter was a Paragon--that one I wiped out its entire fleet, but couldnt crack that nut. Had to run. That would probably require a far more specialized fighter loadout.

Now onto my junkyard pirates run...


« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 12:15:43 AM by StarGibbon »
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Kohlenstoff

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Re: Which Vanilla Faction has the most powerful/fun ships?
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2017, 12:09:20 PM »

While playing independent i was able to get almost any big ship in the military store. Only the Legion did not appear in their store. But luckily i found one in the outer star systems. Being independent pays off quite well because i can trade with anyone. Ok, i made the pirates, luddic path and especially the remnants to vengeful enemies.

My Flagship is a odyssey. I have stacked my skills on fighting and defense abilities and used almost every OP on maxing dissipation, shield and speed attribute to absolute maximum. It has on the left side one tachyon lance and one high intensity laser and it got 2 swadrons of sparks or lux. Nothing more. Yes, just these 2 weapons and 2 squadrons.

While using the forward and backward drive and frequent venting for 0 flux (even while close to enemys) it is way better than it ever was while equipped with more or other weapons. In this configuration it can fight alone against most pirate fleets even when they come with allies (the exceptions are only some of the larger Bounty fleets (most of the 200.000+ Cr. fleets during later game), which may require retreats or are even too hard for a single odyssey). Frequent venting and downing shields is a must in bigger fights and despite the sometimes occuring heavy hits its actually not that dangerous!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N85wHGty3I4

The weakness are too many strong shielded ships. In this case i use my odyssey as assist for 2-3 officer flown dominators. With these i farm the fleets spawned in the system of the maximum battlestation for drone fighter LPCs, Cores and Mod Specs. I use larger fleets with 6+ dominators and 3 odysseys for replacement (while replenishing CR and repairing) and some other capital ships to be able to deploy my ships.  I don't attack the station itself. It pays much more off to farm the fleets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1cUM4YwC_Y

The single odyssey can handle up to 6 squadrons of fighters without taking noticable damage to the shields when the weapons are used as point defense. This is one of the reasons why a high intensity laser is a "must" and not just a "budget" weapon on this ship.

Here i show my dominator and odyssey fleet fighting a high tech fleet. You can see clearly the limits of this odyssey build. Strong shields are a problem. I could install plasma cannons but the problem would just become another. In this case fighters and small ships would be the weakness. Combined weapons require too much flux (or OP which would save flux in different ways) so that larger fleets and continously incoming fire would become the new weakness. Thats why this is my favorite build.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q08LuJ4EWbA
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 08:45:18 AM by Kohlenstoff »
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