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Author Topic: My long list of constructive criticism, so far  (Read 5728 times)

Zapier

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Re: My long list of constructive criticism, so far
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2012, 04:00:57 PM »

...If you put the ability to remove the CP system, then there will be far less feedback and testing with it...

I'd just like to point out that if making command points optional resulted in the vast majority of people choosing not to use them, then that is a good indication that most people do not like the system and thus it probably doesn't belong in this game after all.

I'm the kind of guy who detests these arbitrary limitations in theory, even when they are almost never actually an issue in practice. I will not play a roguelike with hunger mechanics and finite food, for example. I want to, in theory, be able to play forever if I so choose. Likewise, I want to be able to micro to my little OCD heart's content, even in Starfarer.

An option to toggle would probably be for the best. If not, I'll most likely always just mod command points away anyway.

Given the way many of the discussions I've been reading/participating in, it'd probably be closer to the middle, which is why I said half or so... I never said most... and just because people choose not to use something doesn't automatically mean the system doesn't work or shouldn't work. Many people opt out of things for convenience, out of frustration, to avoid things, etc. There are many reasons people choose and wish to not have some mechanics in many games. Many mod friendly games tend to have a very high number of players choose to use mods that alter the vanilla game, but that doesn't mean the vanilla game shouldn't still be the vanilla game. Many people like cheat codes and things that can instantly teleport them around, god mode, infinite money... I know some people that can't purchase and play a game without buying a strategy guide... but does that mean they should come with the game? No.

Sometimes people just choose to take a more simple route. I, on the other hand, prefer some more challenging routes because I find things that feel too easy or simple to be very boring. The way I like to play games, a sans CP system of sorts would likely feel too easy... but that's just my feeling and certainly doesn't reflect everyone else, but that's where my opinions come from. I like the current system. Others do too. I just don't want the current system to go away or get less attention because maybe the other half of the gaming community doesn't like it. If it is down the middle (and there's no way to ever know for sure without extensive and invasive surveying and information collecting) then Alex's opinion/decision is the tie breaker, and he has said the current system is here to stay. So, if the current system is going to stay, then it's better that we all keep using it and playing with it to improve upon it until all the game's features are implemented to fully make use of it as well as finding good compromise within the current system to satisfy the majority of us players.

In the end though, I would encourage you to mod it out when able. I'd encourage everyone to mod in or out whatever feels best and perhaps I'll find myself enjoying some of them too.
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Uomoz

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Re: My long list of constructive criticism, so far
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2012, 04:15:11 PM »

I'm the kind of guy who detests these arbitrary limitations in theory, even when they are almost never actually an issue in practice. I will not play a roguelike with hunger mechanics and finite food, for example. I want to, in theory, be able to play forever if I so choose. Likewise, I want to be able to micro to my little OCD heart's content, even in Starfarer.

Flux is an arbitrary limitation to your shields, as to your weapons. Amunitions are a limitation. Credits, crew, fuel, all limitations.

Please, there is a difference between limitations and RESOURCES.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 04:16:47 PM by Uomoz »
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j01

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Re: My long list of constructive criticism, so far
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2012, 05:59:29 PM »

Given the way many of the discussions I've been reading/participating in, it'd probably be closer to the middle...

Actually, being a fairly attentive forum lurker, I'd say that I've noticed most people either do like or don't mind command points in general. The outlook is generally positive, especially in the cases where Alex has taken the time to explain that it is something they have already tried both ways, and found that the current system works best.

If in truth it was closer to half or more players consistently doing away with command points if given the option, then yes, as a point of good game design I would suspect that the system should probably not work the way it does or even be present.

I don't think this is the case, but if it were, as your scenario would suggest, then that should necessarily be a cause for concern.

As for the rest that isn't hyperbole, all I can say is that if half or more players were consistently frustrated to the point of editing other gameplay mechanics in order to find it enjoyable, then that is indeed also a good indication that there are fundamental flaws in the game's design in each instance.

Flux is an arbitrary limitation to your shields, as to your weapons. Amunitions are a limitation. Credits, crew, fuel, all limitations.

Flux is infinitely renewable during combat in various ways, ammunition is a balance factor for the strengths of the weapons that are limited by it and it is a choice to use them AND there are hull mods to bolster them, credits and crew and fuel are infinitely renewable and the latter two are even customizable with a great level of choice based on the ships in one's fleet.

These do not compare to command points, especially considering command points directly determine how intuitively you can control your very own units within the main area of gameplay.

Please, there is a difference between limitations and RESOURCES.

You seem confused. Command points are a limited resource. You can add an extra couple during combat by capturing control points if you're lucky, determined, or outfitted specifically to excel at doing so, but once used they are gone and you are reduced to relying almost exclusively on the AI within very limited parameters, or taking direct control of one ship at a time. It matters on a case by case basis, and each case has a hard limit. That distinction is important.

In theory.

In practice, I, for one, got used to command point conservation so quickly that I have yet to run out, and almost never use more than half of the beginning allotment. I imagine most people find it this easy in general to manage for the moment. I've never seen it become an issue, but it isn't hard to imagine situations where it could.

It may not BE arbitrary, but it certainly FEELS arbitrary, and it is objectively limiting on one's intuitiveness of control on a strategic level.

In the end, it's merely a point of personal preference. For now, I don't prefer the overarching sense of artificial limitation, but I have a feeling that I will change my mind several times as the game is further developed, and the systems tie in to even more emergent elements of gameplay.
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BonhommeCarnaval

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Re: My long list of constructive criticism, so far
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2012, 06:54:05 PM »

For me it's not so much that I don't like limitations nor want to cheat but rather that I'm looking for an immersive experience with Starfarer.

I like my Mario Kart / Gran Turismo comparison. Slippery bananas and homing turtle shells are fine in Mario Kart but if you were to put them in Gran Turismo it would ruin my game experience, regardless of how well they are explained and implemented.

In the same sense, if Mount and Balde had Command points, aswell as capture points that give your archers 25% more range, they would also significantly lessen the immersion for me. Does this mean I want Mount & Blade to be as realistic as possible? No. I want immersion, not realism. There are so things that are so far-fatched, gimmicky and obscure that they are not only irrealistic but also immersion breaking. Command points and capture points are the 2 big ones for me in Starfarer.

I'm surprised so few people understand this but I'm starting to think it's in large part because of fanboys/whiteknights. Note that this is not aimed at anyone in particular, I know a lot of people are actually interested in helping the game be the best it can be.  :)

By the way, as for the AI relying on such things, that is a simple fix : pretend to the AI that it has 50 (or just a ton of) command points but have every order cost 0. As for capture points, we already have engagements without them.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 06:57:28 PM by BonhommeCarnaval »
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Zapier

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Re: My long list of constructive criticism, so far
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2012, 08:03:26 PM »

For me it's not so much that I don't like limitations nor want to cheat but rather that I'm looking for an immersive experience with Starfarer.

I like my Mario Kart / Gran Turismo comparison. Slippery bananas and homing turtle shells are fine in Mario Kart but if you were to put them in Gran Turismo it would ruin my game experience, regardless of how well they are explained and implemented.

In the same sense, if Mount and Balde had Command points, aswell as capture points that give your archers 25% more range, they would also significantly lessen the immersion for me. Does this mean I want Mount & Blade to be as realistic as possible? No. I want immersion, not realism. There are so things that are so far-fatched, gimmicky and obscure that they are not only irrealistic but also immersion breaking. Command points and capture points are the 2 big ones for me in Starfarer.

I'm surprised so few people understand this but I'm starting to think it's in large part because of fanboys/whiteknights. Note that this is not aimed at anyone in particular, I know a lot of people are actually interested in helping the game be the best it can be.  :)

By the way, as for the AI relying on such things, that is a simple fix : pretend to the AI that it has 50 (or just a ton of) command points but have every order cost 0. As for capture points, we already have engagements without them.

Guess I'll take the title of fanboy/whiteknight since most of your post seemed to be in response to many things I posted. That's fine. On the flip side, there are people who just refuse to accept some things until it fits their way... some of us can accept them because, it is a game after all.

Anyways, Mount&Blade didn't have command points, you are right... but because there was no need or anything that would make sense in that. In Starfarer, it's not so far fetched if you don't close your mind to it. You don't have to take capture points but it's not so far fetched to open your mind to the idea that capturing a nav buoy could give you navigational potential/charts that would allow you to increase your speed for knowing what's there... without having to slow down just in case something is there you couldn't anticipate. Command Relays captured give you a better command structure to command with... better relay potential or increased command capabilities. Sensor Arrays can work to improve your targeting systems by offering additional sensor information to improve accuracy, thus range as well.

Could you easily argue in ways to make it sound silly? Sure, but do you have to just because you can? Nope. If choosing not to argue because the methods I can imagine for their reason in the game works, and that makes me fanboyish... I guess I'm guilty. Damn, I must be one of those people that accepts things on faith or belief that it makes sense and that I don't have to question every little thing just because I may not fully agree with them. How horrible of me.

Command Points as well... well, it's another one of those things that's been explained many times by people better than I. It sounds good to me. It works in my games and I do not find them constricting. I enjoy the freeform nature of many games as the 90%+ of us here do as well, but I can respect some rules and guidelines, mechanics and system that offer some limitations in a game. It is a game.

Finally, yes you could do that for the AI, but I still doubt the AI could or would make use of repeated commands without a real overhaul. Few AIs and especially not ones like these can make unique and innovative strategies... only what they're designed to make, which makes them limited to the human mind. It's fine for games where the computer gets things like 4x the ships you do, or special bonuses you don't get, but they don't here... so don't give those bonuses to the human players by taking the throttling off the human control... I fear the game's difficulty would suffer too much for a needless few extra orders just because someone can't just put their trust into the AI or accept that sometimes the game will beat you and you may have to try again. The game doesn't end when you lose... so don't act like you need full control to prevent disaster and the ruin of your 'savegame'.
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