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[CrashToDesktop]

Piranhas are good this version, but against Frigates nothing is like 2 Talons. Its... scary.

Also, you mentioned in the other thread that you're having trouble catching things with fighters - Piranhas are speed 150(?) and Talons are 300. (And Thunders are 325, but I haven't player around with them yet).

Piranhas are surprisingly good this patch - I think someone buffed the health of their bombs or they're just dropping more of them faster.  However, they do have this rather nasty habit of dropping their bomb load with me in between their target, so it turns into a mad scramble to hit the Maneuvering Jets button and get out of dodge before the things hit me.  At least the target isn't so lucky most of the time, heh.

[tinsoldier]

Welp, now I use nothing but sparks.  They're the thing that needs to be nerfed.  Just a bunch of drovers (and a mora) with only sparks, it's hilarious.  I'm drowning in LPCs for them now.

[Thaago]

Agreed .

I also enjoy how the mass of bombs that the first ship sometimes dodges disrupts the death balls that the AI loves to hide in .

Currently I would rate bombers as:
Piranas>Kopesh>Trident>Dagger.

Tridents are slightly more effective then Piranhas and Kopesh's, but cost too many OP to use. Daggers are less effective and cost more. In theory their superior accuracy is a boon, but in practice they don't have enough damage potential to do anything. The lmg on the Piranha pushes it ahead of the accuracy of the Kopesh.

[xenoargh]

But PD beams (not Tacs, Tacs are very good) are ineffective against both missiles and fighters atm - hence I was proposing a way to give them increased effectiveness without making them frigate killers.

They wouldn't gain a thing, though; Fighters have Armor.  Their TTK would actually go down.  

But they need more efficiency to be better, too.  If they were Frag, at doubled efficiency, they'd be missile-killers but not fighter-killers.  Might work, other than kind of driving them further and further way from being "energy weapons" in terms of fluff feel vs. gameplay effect.  Not entirely against that if it's the best way to solve for them improving.

Make them HE instead; then, with a bit more efficiency (maybe 1.5X) they'd not kill Frigates well (bad Flux / DPS trade vs. shields) but would do un-shielded fighters and missiles.  

I'm really not afraid of PD's / Mining Lasers becoming much better, though; their engagement ranges are so low until Advanced Optics is on ships that it's not like it matters if they're also halfway-decent assault weapons (and it would give them something to do besides maybe, on occasion, stopping single Harpoons / Salamanders).  They simply aren't like Tacs; they don't have range enough to be a real balance issue.

Currently I would rate bombers as:
Piranas>Kopesh>Trident>Dagger.

Hmm.  I wasn't terribly impressed with the Kopesh, but I haven't massed them.  Daggers work fine on a player-run carrier (now that that is actually worth doing). 

Broadswords have been an interesting part of the mix, though, because their new Flares cause PD to waste rounds.  Not sure that was intended, but it's funny when they're in the mix because of that.

[Thaago]

But PD beams (not Tacs, Tacs are very good) are ineffective against both missiles and fighters atm - hence I was proposing a way to give them increased effectiveness without making them frigate killers.

They wouldn't gain a thing, though; Fighters have Armor.  Their TTK would actually go down.  
...

But a lower TTK is exactly what I want - kill the fighters faster.
Sorry, I shouldn't snark over typos.

Broadswords have been an interesting part of the mix, though, because their new Flares cause PD to waste rounds.  Not sure that was intended, but it's funny when they're in the mix because of that.

Yeah, they really help. Originally they were going to have a ship system that confused PD, but people brainstormed in the fighter blog comment thread to make it more transparent.

[CrashToDesktop]

Welp, now I use nothing but sparks.  They're the thing that needs to be nerfed.  Just a bunch of drovers (and a mora) with only sparks, it's hilarious.  I'm drowning in LPCs for them now.

Nothing like a pair of Burst PD lasers to rip things to shreads.  Five in a wing, too.

I find the Piranhas to be a bit lackluster against destroyers, but anything bigger and it works well.  The Kohpesh is especially good against frigates and destroyers, though it losses effectiveness against anything larger due to it's relatively light payload.  Daggers do need improving now that they're armed with Atropos and the Atropos is so a bit bad, though - hell, a barrage of all three torpedoes doesn't do much to a Lasher since it can just shield up and take it all without flinching.

[xenoargh]

It's cool, lol.  But yeah; HE to make them fighter-killers; Frag to push them missiles.  Or a little of both- HE for Mining Lasers, Frag for PD / LRPD... give them all their specific cases?

[TaLaR]

It's cool, lol.  But yeah; HE to make them fighter-killers; Frag to push them missiles.  Or a little of both- HE for Mining Lasers, Frag for PD / LRPD... give them all their specific cases?

They could do both at the same time. Like 50 HE dps + 100 Frag dps on PD laser (or energy + frag). There are some mod weapons with similar mechanics.

[Embolism]

Atropos need to be buffed, and Daggers should get half-damage Reapers!

I don't see any reason why Beams should deal weird damage types. They have the benefit of accuracy and, to a small degree, range; they pay for that with low DPS. Sure they're a bit lackluster but nothing a bit of number tweaking can't fix... for starters I'd increase PD/LRPD range to 500/1000 and improve LRPD's damage/flux to 60/75.

[intrinsic_parity]

Anyone else feel like daggers are absolute trash now? 20 op and they only have a single atropos? For 20 op they should have a reaper, or at least multiple atropos.

[RickyRio]

Welp, now I use nothing but sparks.  They're the thing that needs to be nerfed.  Just a bunch of drovers (and a mora) with only sparks, it's hilarious.  I'm drowning in LPCs for them now.

I have to agree here.

I had an astral fit with 6 sparks for covering my paragon vs an officer'ed [REDACTED] station and the astral decided to send them in on a bombing run before I was in range. Took out one of the armored long range weapon corners in ONE PASS.

[TJJ]

If we want fighters to be properly fleshed out, we need a way to have fighters be good at killing other fighters/bombers and NOT good at killing frigates+.

I'd propose that the fragmentation damage type be changed to deal 10% to shields, armour AND hull, but 100% damage to fighters/bombers.
Then arm fighters with frag, and reserve KI/HE/EN types for use by bombers.

And the Bad Idea of the Day award goes toooooo... TJJ!

... well, looks like you've got the Most Worthless Post of the Day all wrapped up!

Nobody has given a reason why an anti-fighter damage type is an intrinsically bad idea?
Indeed it solves the flaw of there being little distinction between bombers and fighters.
* Make a fighter strong against other fighters, and it'll murder Frigates+
* Make a bomber weak to other fighters, and it'll become ineffective Vs Frigates+

I posit that Speed/Evasion alone is not a sufficiently strong balancing factor in a 2D game because incidental collisions are inherently more likely than in real life/3D. (Tbh it's not much of posit, more an indisputable mathematical truth)

[Megas]

For fun late night, I tried classic kite-and-snipe with destroyers (Enforcer, Hammerhead, Medusa, and Drover) against the SIM Aurora; my skill help from max Gunnery Implants (but no ITU because I do not have it), max OP, and Helmsmanship 2.  The only two that won were Hammerhead and Drover.  Enforcer was too slow (could not keep its distance), and Medusa lacked shot range.  Hammerhead could kite-and-snipe with Mauler, HVD, and Tac Lasers.  Drover could do the same with light needlers and talon spam.  Use needlers for anti-shield, and Talons for other damage.  The Talons were on Regroup because the Aurora kept staying close enough that Talons attacked despite hovering around my Drover.  Talons just kept streaming out at 90+% at all times.  No carrier skills.  Not very practical if I lose all of my crew, but that was not the point of this test.

Drover with two Talons is a top-tier destroyer.

Fighting enemy Eagle with graviton beams was nastier than Aurora.  Without ITU, I do not know if any destroyer can outfight it.

Hammerhead has definitely improved, and is competitive with Enforcer and Medusa.

EDIT:  Hammerhead had the easiest time with SIM Aurora.  For Drover and Talons, it was a tough and close fight.

[Mini S]

Piranhas are surprisingly good this patch - I think someone buffed the health of their bombs or they're just dropping more of them faster.  However, they do have this rather nasty habit of dropping their bomb load with me in between their target, so it turns into a mad scramble to hit the Maneuvering Jets button and get out of dodge before the things hit me.  At least the target isn't so lucky most of the time, heh.

Now try that with a Hammerhead with degraded engines.

[Megas]

Anyone else feel like daggers are absolute trash now? 20 op and they only have a single atropos? For 20 op they should have a reaper, or at least multiple atropos.

Maybe, except for Astral.  Just as Expanded Magazines is primarily an Onslaught hullmod, Daggers seem to be made for Astrals.  Astral can load up with six Dagger wings, have them fire bombs en masse, recall them, vent, and repeat.  That obliterates smaller ships with ease.  Basically a poor-man's Clarent spam (from Knights Templar).