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[Schwartz]

If Alex is trying to avoid giving one fighter all the damage-dealing tools, then Talon clearly slipped through the cracks if a heavily shielded Aurora is not a problem for it. If a ship does not have 360° shields and is beset by fighters.. it does not matter whether the fighters have kinetics or not! Generally I agree, but see how combat plays out. Broadsword is underwhelming for the cost, compared to alternatives. Wasps are so-so. Fielded them for a while, but right now with everything so skewed towards Talon, I had to finally give in.

[Thaago]

O.o I need to try this Condor + Talons against Aurora. My intuition would tell me that blaster + burst PD will tear them apart. Gonna test...

[Edit]

So in the sim a stock Aurora crushes a Condor + Talons with minor armor damage. The burst PD are much less effective than I expected because they are wasting so many charges against swarmers that would hit the shield anyways.

Claw + Kopesh did about half of the Aurora's health before it could catch the condor. Still testing .

[Midnight Kitsune]

If Alex is trying to avoid giving one fighter all the damage-dealing tools, then Talon clearly slipped through the cracks if a heavily shielded Aurora is not a problem for it. If a ship does not have 360° shields and is beset by fighters.. it does not matter whether the fighters have kinetics or not! Generally I agree, but see how combat plays out. Broadsword is underwhelming for the cost, compared to alternatives. Wasps are so-so. Fielded them for a while, but right now with everything so skewed towards Talon, I had to finally give in.

No offense to Alex and company, but they make some of the WORST variants I have ever seen and since it doesn't look like SS has Dynasector level random variants, stuff like killing an aurora with talons is easy. Also, what and where was this? In the SIM?

[Schwartz]

Yes, I ran it in the sim. You still have to watch your ass naturally, flying a Condor with bad shields, but all other fighter loadouts I could field did worse than Talons.

The Aurora Balanced variant is a bit of a mixed bag, but the ship itself is a flux powerhouse and it does have 3x Burst PD.

[Toxcity]

Talons are an anomaly compared to the other fighters though; everything else is specialized toward a role. Talons have the ability to circumvent non 360 shields, damage armor, and deal alot of damage to hull. No wonder everything else looks bad. Removing swarmers brings them inline with everything else.

[Voyager I]

If Alex is trying to avoid giving one fighter all the damage-dealing tools, then Talon clearly slipped through the cracks if a heavily shielded Aurora is not a problem for it. If a ship does not have 360° shields and is beset by fighters.. it does not matter whether the fighters have kinetics or not! Generally I agree, but see how combat plays out. Broadsword is underwhelming for the cost, compared to alternatives. Wasps are so-so. Fielded them for a while, but right now with everything so skewed towards Talon, I had to finally give in.

No offense to Alex and company, but they make some of the WORST variants I have ever seen and since it doesn't look like SS has Dynasector level random variants, stuff like killing an aurora with talons is easy. Also, what and where was this? In the SIM?

I'd imagine those are mostly by design.  It seems like a prettttty safe bet that they know Triple Thumpers isn't an ideal Enforcer loadout.

[Thaago]

So in the sim a stock Aurora crushes a Condor + Talons with minor armor damage. The burst PD are much less effective than I expected because they are wasting so many charges against swarmers that would hit the shield anyways.

Claw + Kopesh did about half of the Aurora's health before it could catch the condor. Still testing Smiley.

[Midnight Kitsune]

Are those that are testing talons against SIM enemies, testing without officers? If not then you are skewing the data. And you also need to look at crew losses and other out of battle stats as well

[Schwartz]

The player character has the fleet-wide fighter buff. But yeah. The trick is for the Condor to stay just outside of the engagement range - obviously an autopiloted Condor is going to get crushed. It wasn't so much about the 2 Talons being able to beat the Aurora every time reliably, but about a comparison for how well different fighter loadouts could handle the Aurora. Where more expensive fighters didn't really do any better, and most of the time worse.

I did try this with both an empty officer seat and my 'wing commander'. It's also interesting to see how those skills favour different fighter wings.

[Embolism]

Maybe the real problem with Talons is that their replacement time is at least half of almost every other fighter (Wasp is equivalent, Claw is 8s to Talon's 5s).

[Thaago]

The player character has the fleet-wide fighter buff. But yeah. The trick is for the Condor to stay just outside of the engagement range - obviously an autopiloted Condor is going to get crushed. It wasn't so much about the 2 Talons being able to beat the Aurora every time reliably, but about a comparison for how well different fighter loadouts could handle the Aurora. Where more expensive fighters didn't really do any better, and most of the time worse.

I did try this with both an empty officer seat and my 'wing commander'. It's also interesting to see how those skills favour different fighter wings.

Interesting... it sounds that, with difficulty, the Talons allow a player piloted Destroyer with bonuses to beat a stock Aurora. That sounds about right to me - whats concerning is that the other fighters couldn't do it! I think the discrepancy is size - I see most of the main gun shots against Talons missing, while the main gun shots against other fighters hit.

It is true however that Talons should be the same OP as a lot of other fighters and bombers. Honestly, I'm seeing every fighter right now being 5 OP except for the trident, which is worth 10. (Yes, I think Daggers are 15OP too expensive. They kind of suck.)

[TJJ]

If we want fighters to be properly fleshed out, we need a way to have fighters be good at killing other fighters/bombers and NOT good at killing frigates+.

I'd propose that the fragmentation damage type be changed to deal 10% to shields, armour AND hull, but 100% damage to fighters/bombers.
Then arm fighters with frag, and reserve KI/HE/EN types for use by bombers.

[Thaago]

If we want fighters to be properly fleshed out, we need a way to have fighters be good at killing other fighters/bombers and NOT good at killing frigates+.

I'd propose that the fragmentation damage type be changed to deal 10% to shields, armour AND hull, but 100% damage to fighters/bombers.
Then arm fighters with frag, and reserve KI/HE/EN types for use by bombers.

I strongly disagree with this. I would never waste a flight deck spot on a fighter that couldn't damage proper ships.

If all battles were carrier vs carrier, with other ships as window dressing, then it would make sense - that might make a fun TC mod, actually...

[Midnight Kitsune]

If we want fighters to be properly fleshed out, we need a way to have fighters be good at killing other fighters/bombers and NOT good at killing frigates+.

I'd propose that the fragmentation damage type be changed to deal 10% to shields, armour AND hull, but 100% damage to fighters/bombers.
Then arm fighters with frag, and reserve KI/HE/EN types for use by bombers.

And the Bad Idea of the Day award goes toooooo... TJJ!

[Toxcity]

You can make a loadout that is good against fighters though. My Heron has a combo of Gladius, Claws, and Wasps that mauls Talons and other fighters. They also do well vs. frigates+, but aren't to effective due to their low armor penetration.