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[nomadic_leader]

The tutorial shouldn't force you to pick a side. What if someone doesn't want to be hegemony? What if someone wants to be pirates? Etc. Just have people fight domain drones or something. At the end of the tutorial I was already vengeful with pirates and can't even do missions for them anymore.

It's really bizarre and frustrating to have a game present itself as "open world" but in fact it's designed to force you to play one way:
Don't solo
Don't play as a pirate
Don't trade


But anyway now with .8 we're back to no pirate start. Why dress up the game with all this open world stuff if you just want people to play one way?

[mendonca]

Surely the tutorial is for 'first time' players; and therefore it makes sense in this context?

If you want a pirate start you should start again without playing the tutorial?

Maybe I'm being too simplistic about this.

[Gothars]

Maybe I'm being too simplistic about this.

You're not.

[nomadic_leader]

Wrong.

How the devil would I know that the first time I start the tutorial? How would a first time player know this? What if the first time player wants to play as pirates?

[Inventor Raccoon]

Wrong.

How the devil would I know that the first time I start the tutorial? How would a first time player know this? What if the first time player wants to play as pirates?

A first time player shouldn't be playing as pirates, because it's pretty much hard mode. Give them the option once they're more comfortable with the game.

[nomadic_leader]

Wrong.

It's an open world game. People can play as they want and the tutorial shouldn't jam them into one rail before they even know what's going on or know anything about the world.  You guys seem to all be totally missing the point.

[Thaago]

The tutorial is good as is.

[nomadic_leader]

The tutorial is good as is.

Can you provide an argument for why a game that's supposed to be about letting you do your own thing picks a faction for you in the tutorial before you even know anything about the game? Why should the tutorial put you in a such a hole with a particular faction that will be extremely difficult to get out of? Why even bother with the illusion of choice?

Please don't use stock forum answer #3,281: "Pirates are just supposed to be there for you to kill in the early game."  Why have different factions and different relationships with them if these things aren't supposed to be malleable? If you're just supposed to do it one way? This is not a rail shooter.

[Megas]

Tutorial will likely make Pirates vengeful.

Hegemony comes off as the obviously good-guy heroic faction, and heroic players with no faction bias might just join the Hegemony.  If I role-play, I don't want to be a jerk to the hand that fed me, so I will get Hegemony commission in my first game (even though I tend to favor Tri-Tachyon for their hardware).

P.S.  The tutorial may be fine, but forcing players to play it for their first game is not.  If player must be forced to play tutorial, then it should not be pro-Hegemony.

[Wyvern]

It's an open world game. People can play as they want and the tutorial shouldn't jam them into one rail before they even know what's going on or know anything about the world.  You guys seem to all be totally missing the point.

Wrong.

Just because something has an "open world" doesn't imply that you should necessarily be able to do whatever you want.  I mean, that would be like claiming that, in the latest Zelda game, it's "wrong" that you can't have Link join forces with Gannondorf and subjugate Hyrule.
And cutting off one particularly frustrating option so that new players can't fall into a trap is a good trait for a tutorial to have, not a bad one.

Now, if the tutorial forced the player into conflict with Tri-Tachyon or the Sindrian Diktat or etc., - that would be worth complaining about.  But it doesn't; there are still plenty of "rails" left available.  And, as has been noted elsewhere, if you really want to play as a pirate - the option's still there.

[Histidine]

Also: You're not forced to join the Hegemony. You get a bunch of handy rep points but no commission, and in fact the Jangala official at the last stage of the tutorial specifically recommends you don't take a commission for a while.

If we somehow decide this is a problem, just make vengeful status recoverable from and/or make normal combat not cause vengeful status (at least during the tutorial period).

[Megas]

True, although joining someone else might make Hegemony the enemy.  As for rep points, they are mostly useless without a commission.  (Yes, they are a buffer for bad behavior.)

[nomadic_leader]

Zelda analogy is imperfect. Open world doesn't mean just that you can wander around Zelda (I presume) doesn't give you an alterable relationship with every faction including the bad guys.

Starsector does, but then makes it almost impossible to alter with one faction, particularly if you do the tutorial. It presents you with the illusion of choice, but basically strips away the choice. As Histidine points out, the main tutorial issue is not so much the + rep points with hegemony, but the negative rep points with the pirates.

The lore even contradicts it, making the pirates sound much more ambiguous than "evil bad guys" that the game you play wants them to be. And the tutorial mission is like, against starving miners or something. The game doesn't seem to be able to decide what kind of game it wants to be, and that is frustrating with each new release. Why do they bother with campaign if they just want people to fight ships?

[Thaago]

Ok, I will elaborate:

1) The purpose of a tutorial is to introduce a new player to the various features of the game. Its good.

2) It is also supposed to help the new player have a good time and keep playing. The single most important thing for doing so in SS is to help alleviate the early game difficulty. Giving the player a fleet, giving them a faction that they are a little more friendly with (although lets be honest, its not by too much), and giving them easy targets to fight against are all part of that.

3) Allying with Pirates is Hard Mode and NOT encouraged for first time players. 99.9% of playthroughs will be hostile to them. For a new player the game shouldn't give that option.


The player isn't even remotely on rails - honestly your argument comes across as very silly.

[nomadic_leader]

Ok, I will elaborate:

1) The purpose of a tutorial is to introduce a new player to the various features of the game. Its good.

Yes it fulfills that purpose well. (But doesn't show anything about surveying)

2) It is also supposed to help the new player have a good time and keep playing. The single most important thing for doing so in SS is to help alleviate the early game difficulty. Giving the player a fleet, giving them a faction that they are a little more friendly with (although lets be honest, its not by too much), and giving them easy targets to fight against are all part of that.

The hardest thing about early game is a billion mindlessly hostile pirates chasing down a small fleet that surely isn't profitable for them to attack, and not accepting bribes to leave it alone. If the early game's to be made easier, decreasing pirate hostility a bit might be good, no? Then let the players decide to start killing them, if they want.

3) Allying with Pirates is Hard Mode and NOT encouraged for first time players. 99.9% of playthroughs will be hostile to them. For a new player the game shouldn't give that option.

This is just a repeated orthodoxy. Why does it have to be that way? Why should it be discouraged?

Alex in some other thread about slavery said he didn't want to make a game that made him cringe, so he didn't put slavery in.

Then in the tutorial of the game, you kill miners who took over a jump gate because they were hungry or something, and you have no choice about which side is more just.

Ok.