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[Nighteyes]

Alex, to continue few thoughts on my original point of Trader as a profession.

I think one of the reasons I was confused about the current difficulty of running cargo to earn money is based on the decisions available to the player when starting a new game.
One of the first questions asked to them is how they have been recently earning a living. Their choices are

1. A trader
2. A smuggler
3. A bounty hunter
4. A privateer

These four options are what a new player will consider to be the methods to make money in Starsector. But as I mentioned in the other thread linked above, some of them are just not player-friendly. Therefore, in addition to determining the player's starting ship and loadout, this is a perfect opportunity to introduce the player to the main methods of earning an income for a new captain.

The Trader and Smuggler options are a bit misleading since they suggest trading and smuggling are viable ways to earn income. Maybe for a very veteran player, but for a new or casual player? Not likely. It might be best to remove these options until early game trading/smuggling mechanics make it a viable method of earning income.

Bounty Hunter is the most straight-forward role since the game encourages that form of play through missions.

Privateer is a little confusing since the player doesn't get to choose the faction they are associated with. Maybe give the player an option to choose one of the major factions to align with and give the player +20 towards that faction's standing and they receive remuneration for disabling/destroying enemy faction ships.

One suggestion I have is Peacekeeper which gains +20 with Independent, and gets 250 credits for every pirate ship disabled/destroyed from the Independent merchant faction for helping keep piracy down.

I think I heard you will be adding a Salvager and maybe Explorer? or Miner? starting options which are great additions to give players a variety of options on how to start their campaign.

I think with these options being a little more self-descriptive with their associated roles, the new player will have a better clue of what they should be doing from the very start.

[Megas]

For me, the difference between bounty hunter and privateer is the latter offers the Scarab and the other does not.  They could be rolled together.  I guess privateer features non-hostile pirate starts, but since pirates have junk for sale and I need something to kill (and I can always land on pirate planets regardless of reputation), I pass on non-hostile pirates.

The Scarab is a much easier ship to start and fight with, not to mention very hard to acquire more.  The other starters are way too slow.  Unskilled Wayfarer is not very effective at fighting (which I can expect due to being a hybrid).  Unskilled Centurion is Hermes' fatter brother (takes a beating a bit better, but eats way too much for sub-par shuttle-like firepower), and Lasher is the swordsman in a world full of Indiana Joneses with guns.  The only major problem with Scarab start is Tri-Tachyon hostility if I want to commission with them.  I leveled up to 35+ before earning enough reputation to go from hostile to favorable.

P.S.  If Smuggler has Hound or Cerberus start and Trader does not, I would use Smuggler even for an honest trader because Hound and Cerberus are the only haulers that are fast enough to reliably outrun everything pirates can throw at them.  Players will get caught by pirates at times and they must flee if they cannot outfight them.  (If players wanted to fight pirates, they would pick a combat-focused start to begin with.)  That may not be the case once pirates get phase ships in 0.8.

[Nighteyes]

For me, the difference between bounty hunter and privateer is the latter offers the Scarab and the other does not.  They could be rolled together.  I guess privateer features non-hostile pirate starts, but since pirates have junk for sale and I need something to kill (and I can always land on pirate planets regardless of reputation), I pass on non-hostile pirates.

The Scarab is a much easier ship to start and fight with, not to mention very hard to acquire more.  The other starters are way too slow.  Unskilled Wayfarer is not very effective at fighting (which I can expect due to being a hybrid).  Unskilled Centurion is Hermes' fatter brother (takes a beating a bit better, but eats way too much for sub-par shuttle-like firepower), and Lasher is the swordsman in a world full of Indiana Joneses with guns.  The only major problem with Scarab start is Tri-Tachyon hostility if I want to commission with them.  I leveled up to 35+ before earning enough reputation to go from hostile to favorable.

P.S.  If Smuggler has Hound or Cerberus start and Trader does not, I would use Smuggler even for an honest trader because Hound and Cerberus are the only haulers that are fast enough to reliably outrun everything pirates can throw at them.  Players will get caught by pirates at times and they must flee if they cannot outfight them.  (If players wanted to fight pirates, they would pick a combat-focused start to begin with.)  That may not be the case once pirates get phase ships in 0.8.

Right, but you are looking at it as an experienced player. A new player has no idea what any of what you just wrote means. Scarab? Hound?

All they see are professions which hints to them what they should do once they start playing.

[Megas]

I get what you mean.  Four could easily be folded into two.

A new player might know what the ships are and maybe have an idea on what they do, but they probably would not know how the campaign works in practice until they get ganked by pirates.

[Alex]

I think one of the reasons I was confused about the current difficulty of running cargo to earn money is based on the decisions available to the player when starting a new game.
...

Yep, totally agree. Which is why I'm currently aiming for two starting options for the next release - "bounty hunter" and "scavenger". Though, really, I'd very much expect most characters to do a mix of both things.

Also doing some minor tweaks to procurement to make trade a bit kinder, but not enough to want to add a "trader" start back in.

(I also want to add that smuggling is much more lucrative and viable than trade, but as you say, it does take a more experienced player.)

[nomadic_leader]

It's messed up that it's easier and less risky to earn money by killing people than by trading. Wouldn't everyone in society become murderers? This is why the starsector has always seemed nihilistic and cruel-hearted to me.

There should be a slow exponential curve for earning money by trade. Steady but boring.

Earning a living by combat should be more demanding of player skill than trade is. Initially more remunerative but more punctuated and irregular. Later on not as remunerative as being a mega merchant. Always more exciting.

The game should be re-balanced to reflect this, so that new players are steered into the slow and steady trader/salvager options for their first play-throughs to learn the universe. Then later on they switch to bounty hunter.

[Cik]

the sector is falling apart. haven't you noticed the sort of grim atmosphere? the governments being remnants of remnants, if that, pirates lunatics and murderers behind every jump, the derelict relics everywhere, the patchwork at best modification ability of major starfaring powers, etc etc etc.

governments aren't interested in making trading profitable, hence the tariffs. everyone is on a war footing. trading does not mean easy, especially in a degraded warzone such as the place where we are.

"wouldn't everyone become murderers"?

no, but a sizable minority would, if only to keep themselves alive.

the game has a 40k vibe and always has IMO. in the modern patches it jumps out especially with all the decivilized warzones, giant unknown relics, "habitable" worlds barely being habitable, and the fact that everyone is at war over dwindling resources.

[Toxcity]

It's less that killing itself is more profitable (seriously fight fleets in a non bounty area) it's that bounties are more profitable.

For gameplay reasons bounties have to be a bit more profitable than trading/smuggling. A lot of that profit goes toward supplies for repair/maintenance, fuel, and replacing any losses (ships/weapons).

It's obvious that some groups are profiting from trades, but not any average joe can do it. Same with bounty hunting.

[Megas]

the sector is falling apart.

It does not feel like it the game.  The lore may say so, but the game pumps out never-ending stream of fleets like monster generators in Gauntlet.  It is a case of gameplay-and-story segregation.

AI never cares about resources because they know the game gives them unlimited resources.  That is why they "gank burn" everyone in their path and frequently break fleet slot limits.

Unlimited fleets keeps the player's war machine rolling.

P.S.  If anything, I feel like in the middle of a gigantic total war among two or more superpowers with effectively unlimited resources, not a small resource fight between citizens and roving bands of robbers or pirates looking for barrels of gas or other valuable commodity to steal.

[nomadic_leader]

Even in mogadishu most people are keeping their head down. Because killing is more risky and harder than trading.

Ok, so in SS the designers want people to have more fun and not trade; but then why go through the trouble to simulate an economy and do all this other stuff? It just makes me want and expect interesting emergent behaviors and Dwarf Fortress style stuff, but instead I just get totally unrealistic things like these bounties and pirates which exist solely to be whacked by the player like pinatas jumping in and shouting "kill me!"

And no the sector is not falling apart; it's utterly stable. You play for years of in-game time; there are 5 stable governments that occasionally have wars then go back to normal. The lore makes it sound like it should be Syria, but in reality it's more like European Balance of Power politics.

[Nighteyes]

I think one of the reasons I was confused about the current difficulty of running cargo to earn money is based on the decisions available to the player when starting a new game.
...

Yep, totally agree. Which is why I'm currently aiming for two starting options for the next release - "bounty hunter" and "scavenger". Though, really, I'd very much expect most characters to do a mix of both things.
...

While it's great to hear the options are being tweaked, seeing them get reduced to two is a bit disappointing!
I always considered these starting options early game roles. The player isn't locked to anything, but the ships and bonuses given depending on their selection give them an small advantage compared to the others until they earn some credits to start expanding to become better at their chosen role or take on additional roles.

In terms of gameplay, and depending on a players ability, these profession choices affect the first 3-8 hours of gameplay. Once the player reaches mid-game (not sure what you have planned, developing their empire? Building stations? etc) they will be strong enough to do whatever they want to earn profit, or maybe mid-game demands them to expand their roles to be able to perform multiple jobs (exploring/mining/pirate slaying) to fulfill mid-game needs.

The types of bonuses would be small things. For example:
Bounty Hunter - Starts with a single capable fighting ship.
Privateer - Gets to choose a faction to start on good terms with. Anyone who is on good terms (+20? +40?) with a faction receives remuneration for killing enemy faction ships. Starts with a second ship.
Peacekeeper - Starts on good terms with Independents. Anyone who is on good terms (+20? +40?) with Independents gets paid 250 credits per pirate kill by the Merchants Guild. Starts with a second ship.
Scavenger - Without knowing enough about this mechanics, I'd say they start with a ship designed to Salvage wrecks better and a light fighting/cargo ship.
Miner - Starts with one or two decked out mining capable ships. Maybe add in a hullmod that improves mining capabilities? (not actually in vanilla)
Explorer - Starts with a ship designed for exploring/scanning for better readings/results which means more profit when selling the data.

One major benefit of this is that this design helps replayability greatly. The second benefit is the game already mostly supports the professions I listed. Finally, each of those initial professions can change to another profession at any time as long as the player has the credits to make the switch. This method gives the player a wide choice of activities to start with but the ability to grow from very narrow to very broad.

[Megas]

And no the sector is not falling apart; it's utterly stable. You play for years of in-game time; there are 5 stable governments that occasionally have wars then go back to normal. The lore makes it sound like it should be Syria, but in reality it's more like European Balance of Power politics.

Not only that, it is less stable during early-game.  Supplies may cost over 100 credits early in the game, when player is struggling to make ends meet.  By endgame, the economy gets more stable and supplies are usually worth about 20-40 credits, barring spikes at markets with a temporary shortage (that is fixed by selling a Buffalo or two full of supplies).  Big superfreighters are only useful as a bag of holding for warmongers.

[AxleMC131]

Not only that, it is less stable during early-game.  Supplies may cost over 100 credits early in the game, when player is struggling to make ends meet.  By endgame, the economy gets more stable and supplies are usually worth about 20-40 credits, barring spikes at markets with a temporary shortage (that is fixed by selling a Buffalo or two full of supplies).  Big superfreighters are only useful as a bag of holding for warmongers.

Don't prices go down with low stability?

[Midnight Kitsune]

Not only that, it is less stable during early-game.  Supplies may cost over 100 credits early in the game, when player is struggling to make ends meet.  By endgame, the economy gets more stable and supplies are usually worth about 20-40 credits, barring spikes at markets with a temporary shortage (that is fixed by selling a Buffalo or two full of supplies).  Big superfreighters are only useful as a bag of holding for warmongers.

Don't prices go down with low stability?

I think he means that the prices themselves are not stable during the early game.

[Megas]

I did not mean stability rating of market.  Jangala (or other mainstream market) rips off early-game players with high supply prices at about 100 credits.  Some time and 30 to 40 levels later, those supplies at Jangala cost much less than when the game began.  Stability rating is more or less the same.