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Author Topic: ITU and DTC in 0.8  (Read 10386 times)

Techhead

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ITU and DTC in 0.8
« on: March 26, 2017, 11:42:28 AM »

Perhaps a little premature, but I've been thinking on the changes to ITU and DTC in 0.8. Since the topic at large was discussed months ago, I figured I'd split further discussion into its own topic.

According to the upcoming patch notes:
  • Dedicated Targeting Core: reduced cost
  • Integrated Targeting Unit:
    • Reduced cost to match DTC
    • Slightly increased range bonus for cruisers (+5%) and capital ships (+10%)
By my reckoning, this puts DTC at -/-/35/50 percent range increase, and ITU at a 10/20/40/60 percent range increase. On cruisers and capitals, this puts ITU at "must-have" and DTC at "I don't have ITU available".

My suggestion with this is:
  • Make DTC a free built-in for (most) cruisers and capitals. Give it a bonus like -/-10/20 percent range. Exclude it from non-combat ships as desired.
  • Make ITU compatible with DTC, for a slightly more modest 10/20/30/40 percent range increase. Total range increase would still be 40/60 for ships with both.

What I think are advantages of this:
  • Not every build needs range, so builds that don't want to pay OP for more range are a little bit more competitive than if they just have +0%.
  • DTC goes from "that option in my hullmod menu that takes up space now that I unlocked ITU" to a small bonus that players don't have to worry about.
  • Purposefully omitting DTC from certain ships becomes a useful balance lever. (Or conversely, inventing a frigate/destroyer bonus for specific frigates/destroyers to make use of.)
  • Minor, but one less bit of clutter in the hullmod selection screen. DTC can't be installed on the majority of ships, and once you have ITU, won't be installed on any.

What I think are the disadvantages:
  • Getting capitals before you get ITU is gonna have a definite aspect of "man I wish I had ITU".
  • Another bit of clutter in the list of installed hullmods.

You can of course, mitigate the disadvantage by making DTC stronger and ITU weaker. eg. -/-/15/30 and 10/20/25/30 or possibly even -/-/20/40 and 10/20/20/20. (IMO, making the frigate version more expensive with a higher bonus might not be the worst idea either. 10% is just barely noticeable.) This will of course make ITU-abstaining builds stronger as well, possibly turning ITU into a "do I really need this?" hullmod.

(A side note: This suggestion is functionally similar to a 'free range bonus by ship size' present in a certain popular mod.)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 02:44:47 PM by Techhead »
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Sy

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Re: ITU and DTC in 0.8
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2017, 01:15:24 PM »

we had several similar suggestions already in various places, like mine here, but Alex seems to really dislike the idea of built-in range bonuses across the board. mostly i think it boils down to: some loadouts should still be able to forgo the range bonuses, but doing that with the current ordnance point and hullmod system would be awkward and/or lead to some issues.
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AxleMC131

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Re: ITU and DTC in 0.8
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2017, 02:21:40 PM »

we had several similar suggestions already in various places, like mine here, but Alex seems to really dislike the idea of built-in range bonuses across the board. mostly i think it boils down to: some loadouts should still be able to forgo the range bonuses, but doing that with the current ordnance point and hullmod system would be awkward and/or lead to some issues.

It would be nice if there was a more obvious reason to pick DTC over ITU. As it is, I was looking at the two of them closely in my current campaign save while loading out a ship, and realised that I could see no difference between them in bonuses or cost, except that DTC can only be put on cruisers and capitals...

...Am I missing something really obvious?
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Sy

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Re: ITU and DTC in 0.8
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2017, 02:25:03 PM »

...Am I missing something really obvious?
no, DTC is objectively useless when you have access to ITU. but DTC is available by default, while ITU needs to be unlocked through skills in the current campaign, and likely through a modspec item in 0.8.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: ITU and DTC in 0.8
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2017, 02:26:15 PM »

we had several similar suggestions already in various places, like mine here, but Alex seems to really dislike the idea of built-in range bonuses across the board. mostly i think it boils down to: some loadouts should still be able to forgo the range bonuses, but doing that with the current ordnance point and hullmod system would be awkward and/or lead to some issues.

It would be nice if there was a more obvious reason to pick DTC over ITU. As it is, I was looking at the two of them closely in my current campaign save while loading out a ship, and realised that I could see no difference between them in bonuses or cost, except that DTC can only be put on cruisers and capitals...

...Am I missing something really obvious?
DTC starts out unlocked
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Techhead

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Re: ITU and DTC in 0.8
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2017, 03:00:47 PM »

we had several similar suggestions already in various places, like mine here, but Alex seems to really dislike the idea of built-in range bonuses across the board. mostly i think it boils down to: some loadouts should still be able to forgo the range bonuses, but doing that with the current ordnance point and hullmod system would be awkward and/or lead to some issues.
I'm surprised I forgot about that topic. I even posted in it.

Anyway, the thing that separates my idea from yours is that some loadouts will forgo the majority of the range bonuses but still be left with something. It's not baked in on every ship, just cruisers and capitals. (And likely skipping ships like the Atlas and Starliner.) Not just clutter that's on every ship, but a vital bit of info that specifically distinguishes larger ships.

And... the difference between 100% and 160% range on a (soon-to-be) is HUGE. If you're looking at area, it's just over two-and-a-half times the area covered by your weapons. And according to the notes, likely going to be very cost-effective. I actually don't expect many loadouts to be able to pass it up. The Aurora and Falcon might be able to as cruisers, but no capital ship comes to mind.

But going from +20% to +60%? That's a 33% relative increase in total range. (About a 78% increase in area.) And I think it's more reasonable. But maybe it's just me.
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AxleMC131

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Re: ITU and DTC in 0.8
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2017, 04:05:06 PM »

...Am I missing something really obvious?
no, DTC is objectively useless when you have access to ITU. but DTC is available by default, while ITU needs to be unlocked through skills in the current campaign, and likely through a modspec item in 0.8.

DTC starts out unlocked

Aye, but really who has access to cruisers/capital ships before they unlock ITU? Is that the only other difference between them, that one is available immediately and the other requires skill unlocks?
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Megas

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Re: ITU and DTC in 0.8
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2017, 04:35:18 AM »

ITU also costs less OP than DTC, at least it does now.
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: ITU and DTC in 0.8
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2017, 08:15:55 AM »

The mod Starsector+ adds, among other things, built-in range bonuses that scale with ship size and reduces the bonuses from DTC and ITU by the same amount. It's basically what you're proposing here, and it works really well. What I find most important about it is that it allows for AI cruisers/capitals that didn't roll a variant with ITU or DTC to not be completely worthless in comparison to the player's cruisers/capitals which will all have ITU.

Seriously. The next time you get into a fight with an AI-piloted cruiser or capital, check if it has DTC or ITU before you engage. A lot of them don't, and they should all have DTC or ITU. Every single one. Even the Gryphon, so if it decides to shoot things with its actual guns it won't overextend past its escort just to get in range.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 08:22:22 AM by ANGRYABOUTELVES »
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Sy

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Re: ITU and DTC in 0.8
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2017, 08:38:20 AM »

Anyway, the thing that separates my idea from yours is that some loadouts will forgo the majority of the range bonuses but still be left with something. It's not baked in on every ship, just cruisers and capitals.
that might be a step in the right direction, but even then most cruiser and capital loadouts would want ITU, so i don't think it would solve the issue -- that being that there's a hullmod that the game is balanced around being used in most loadouts, where not having it is the exception.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: ITU and DTC in 0.8
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2017, 04:32:03 AM »

One of the reasons (combat-)Cruisers and Capitals really need a range bonus is because their sheer size reduces their weapon ranges already. DTC (and ITU) just counters that and is a must-have mod for pretty much any build for that reason alone.
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TheEndstoneGolem

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Re: ITU and DTC in 0.8
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2017, 01:09:01 AM »

As I said in a topic I started similar to this, what if the DTC became a ship system and generated some type of flux when it is on?
Not sure about whether it should be hard flux or soft flux, as they would both alter gameplay mechanics in different ways (certainly for the AI). I feel like the Conquest would benefit greatly from this sort of ship system, as it would allow it to broadside something such as an Onlsaught (which I find difficult to do without dying) and remain safe. In this situation it would be hard flux generation, otherwise it could just poke things at a safe distance forever xD.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: ITU and DTC in 0.8
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2017, 01:10:53 AM »

As I said in a topic I started similar to this, what if the DTC became a ship system and generated some type of flux when it is on?
Not sure about whether it should be hard flux or soft flux, as they would both alter gameplay mechanics in different ways (certainly for the AI). I feel like the Conquest would benefit greatly from this sort of ship system, as it would allow it to broadside something such as an Onlsaught (which I find difficult to do without dying) and remain safe. In this situation it would be hard flux generation, otherwise it could just poke things at a safe distance forever xD.
The AI doesn't do all that well with constant flux buildup, especially hard flux
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Morrokain

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Re: ITU and DTC in 0.8
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2017, 03:09:08 PM »

  • Make DTC a free built-in for (most) cruisers and capitals. Give it a bonus like -/-10/20 percent range. Exclude it from non-combat ships as desired.
  • Make ITU compatible with DTC, for a slightly more modest 10/20/30/40 percent range increase. Total range increase would still be 40/60 for ships with both.

Since this is pretty much exactly the way DTC and ITU (hard numbers vary slightly) work in my mod, I can confirm that its a good system and I will probably be keeping it in this form.

My case for it:

Spoiler
The thing with the vanilla form of DTC is that since it is a "must-have" hullmod, best-case scenario is that its a little extra thought and clicks to make a cap/cruiser at "standard" combat effectiveness. The worst-case (for a new player), however, is that they won't realize its mandatory for whatever reason (this is an implied case after all, there isn't anything saying "Hey you HAVE to equip this") and would inadvertently be at a disadvantage from the game's own intended balance and be none the wiser. XCOM:EU did that with hit percentages and it really frustrated players. There wasn't anything in the numbers telling you rookies had a higher chance to miss even at 87% hit rate. You were just supposed to know based upon the "context" of them being called a "rookie" and being a level 1 soldier against higher level enemies. To me personally, it wasn't the right call. Still a great, great game, but a tactical numbers game where failure is punished severely, and it had many hidden numbers...lol.

The question must be asked then: what does this system provide as a benefit to the player experience? There isn't really a decision being made here, is there? You just need the hullmod to be effective. There is not an alternative strategy to think about or consider. It seems to me that there isn't any benefit to the system then, but there are several potential pitfalls that could be a detriment to the overall fun of using capitals and cruisers under the right circumstances.
[close]

Not saying the way the hullmods are now is absolutely terrible or anything, it definitely works. The worst-case shouldn't be too common either (Its hard to turn down free +50% range  :P ). I just can't really see the benefit of keeping it this way from the player point of view when there is always the inherent possibility that it could be misinterpreted and become a bad thing.
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Alex

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Re: ITU and DTC in 0.8
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2017, 09:42:36 PM »

The question must be asked then: what does this system provide as a benefit to the player experience? There isn't really a decision being made here, is there? You just need the hullmod to be effective. There is not an alternative strategy to think about or consider. It seems to me that there isn't any benefit to the system then, but there are several potential pitfalls that could be a detriment to the overall fun of using capitals and cruisers under the right circumstances.

There are some builds that work without DTC/ITU and can make use of the extra OP elsewhere; those would suffer. Off the top of my head: carriers, missile boats, SO builds, possibly UI builds now that UI gives -25% range - all would have less OP to work with, and could become non-viable as a result.

Now, to derail this thread a bit: the Paragon gets a built-in "Advanced Targeting Core" in 0.8a, at the cost of losing a few OP. It grants +100% range.
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