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Author Topic: Great humble "freedom" bundle!  (Read 10956 times)

Thaago

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Re: Great humble "freedom" bundle!
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2017, 06:30:11 AM »

"Freedom" bundle but the proceeds go to ACLU? Oh the irony...

I know I might regret asking this, but: What's wrong with the ACLU?

ACLU defends vehemently constitutional rights, except when it comes to the the Second Amendment. ACLU's official position is that the Second Amendment protects a collective right rather than individual right, which is both at odds with the Supreme Court decision United States v. Miller and linguistically ignorant. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" is a nominative absolute that when removed, does not damage the grammatical integrity of the sentence nor does it change the meaning the sentence conveys. The main subject is "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms", which says nothing about collective needs (maintaining a militia).

They do vehemently fight to protect the 2cd amendment as they see it (which is a fairly moderate position that both the left and the right are unhappy with, which I find funny). They have teamed up with the NRA before to protect gun owners when the legal details align with their own viewpoint. From wikipedia:
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The national ACLU's position is that the Second Amendment protects a collective right to own guns, rather than an individual right despite the Supreme Court's decision in District of Columbia v. Heller that the Second Amendment is an individual right. The national organization's position is based on the phrases "a well regulated Militia" and "the security of a free State". However, the ACLU opposes any effort to create a registry of gun owners and has worked with the National Rifle Association to prevent a registry from being created and has favored protecting the right to carry guns under the 4th Amendment.
And here is an old article about one of the cases: Link!

(I apologize for not finding the case itself, but I'm not a lawyer so google is good enough for me.)


Other than their interpretation of the 2cd amendment, it seems you approve of the work that the ACLU does, so I'm a bit confused by your initial comment. They are one of the few organizations in the US that I think honestly defend the freedom of its citizens, regardless of politics. They have their own interpretation of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and I don't agree with that interpretation in all cases, but they are diligent and open about what they do.

Also, I would like to congratulate the forum: The 2cd Amendment was mentioned and the conversation is still polite. This may be the first time ever!

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Cik

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Re: Great humble "freedom" bundle!
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2017, 07:04:41 AM »

I wonder how long it'll be before the US populace stop worshipping their Constitution as a Bible, and acknowledge much of it was written a long time ago, in a very different country, by people who had different values & priorities.

abandoning the raison d'etre of your entire civilization seems unwise.
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Megas

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Re: Great humble "freedom" bundle!
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2017, 09:02:28 AM »

I wonder how long it'll be before the US populace stop worshipping their Constitution as a Bible, and acknowledge much of it was written a long time ago, in a very different country, by people who had different values & priorities.
There are people in the US today who agree with the American founding fathers, or at least what is taught as American history, with regards to liberty and limited government.  They want to see their God-given rights and liberties preserved and not stolen by government elitists.  There is a reason why things like so-called "ObamaCare" anger a lot of Americans.
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Gothars

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Re: Great humble "freedom" bundle!
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2017, 09:34:28 AM »

ACLU defends vehemently constitutional rights, except when it comes to the the Second Amendment. ACLU's official position is that the Second Amendment protects a collective right rather than individual right, which is both at odds with the Supreme Court decision United States v. Miller and linguistically ignorant. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" is a nominative absolute that when removed, does not damage the grammatical integrity of the sentence nor does it change the meaning the sentence conveys. The main subject is "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms", which says nothing about collective needs (maintaining a militia).

Thanks for the answer (although I only understand half of it). Regardless of their stance on this specific issue, still seems a good organization overall.



I wonder how long it'll be before the US populace stop worshipping their Constitution as a Bible, and acknowledge much of it was written a long time ago, in a very different country, by people who had different values & priorities.

abandoning the raison d'etre of your entire civilization seems unwise.

I don't think abandonment was on the table, more the very emotional relationship many US Americans  seem to have towards something that, ultimately, is an old set of rules. I believe there are few (if any) countries whose citizens are as likely to refer to their respective constitution in everyday conversations, or spring as vehemently to its defense. I guess it has something so do with a lack of national coherence (inevitable for a relatively young immigrant nation) and the resulting strong need for unifying symbols.





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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

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TJJ

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Re: Great humble "freedom" bundle!
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2017, 09:40:06 AM »

I wonder how long it'll be before the US populace stop worshipping their Constitution as a Bible, and acknowledge much of it was written a long time ago, in a very different country, by people who had different values & priorities.
There are people in the US today who agree with the American founding fathers, or at least what is taught as American history, with regards to liberty and limited government.

Yep, not disputing that those opinions exist.
Merely questing whether such opinions are relevant in the global world within which we live.

As a student I always thought a written constitution was a good idea; a clearly defined set of indisputable rules to provide a foundation upon which a well disciplined & structured society can exist.
Nowadays I favour the benefits of a more pragmatic unwritten constitution; less bureaucratic, and so better able to adapt to changing opinions & circumstances.

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They want to see their God-given rights and liberties preserved and not stolen by government elitists.
There is a reason why things like so-called "ObamaCare" anger a lot of Americans.

*cringe* Don't bring God into this; we're talking politics, not Religion. 1st Ammendment Yo! ;D
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Cik

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Re: Great humble "freedom" bundle!
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2017, 09:44:12 AM »

it is worthy of defense, so it is defended. i don't see why you seem to have a problem with it.

it's important to recognize that people have natural rights. it is a bulwark against the growth of tyranny. my views on the subject(s) presented would probably start a flamewar, but holding europe as some sort of example to follow at the moment rings a little hollow.
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Megas

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Re: Great humble "freedom" bundle!
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2017, 10:22:10 AM »

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Merely questing whether such opinions are relevant in the global world within which we live.
Very relevant, even if not apparent.  More than we know.  There are very bad things brewing in the world today that can explode later this century.

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*cringe* Don't bring God into this; we're talking politics, not Religion. 1st Ammendment Yo!
God is at least part of the Declaration of Independence (not sure about Constitution, not looking up now).  Part of the ideals laid out by American founding documents involves God (or some other spiritual being the American founding fathers called God) in some way.  Also, some atheists in political office distort the first amendment by punishing those who offer a prayer service or otherwise exercise their religious rights, or taking down crosses at various landmarks (that no one had an objection with for decades) or the ten commandments at courthouses, or some outrage any one of us can see on the local news or blog.  Would not be surprised if hate speech laws get used to silence private citizens preaching the word of God in the near future, if not already happening.  First amendment was meant to restrain the federal government: "Congress shall make no law..."

Also, atheism is a religion, because denying God is based on belief - that God does not exist.

Religion and politics go hand-and-hand.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 10:24:58 AM by Megas »
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TJJ

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Re: Great humble "freedom" bundle!
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2017, 10:32:58 AM »

Aw, Megas you gone and done it now. RIP thread :D

FYI

Atheism is the disbelief in everything that cannot be proven.
Religions are the exact opposite; requiring belief without need of proof.

They're antonyms; theism vs atheism.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 10:52:53 AM by TJJ »
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Megas

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Re: Great humble "freedom" bundle!
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2017, 10:40:08 AM »

Atheism is the disbelief in everything that cannot be proven.
God not existing cannot be proved.  I almost mentioned that in my previous post but did not because I thought it was self-evident, and I did not want ramble on too much because politics and religion are hot topics that if discussed, should be tread very carefully.
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TJJ

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Re: Great humble "freedom" bundle!
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2017, 10:49:06 AM »

Atheism is the disbelief in everything that cannot be proven.
God not existing cannot be proved.

The posit that requires proving is "God exists", not "God does not exist".
Requiring proof to deny the existence of something makes no sense, as it could be used to justify rational belief in anything (and everything); fairies, pixies, ghosts, demons, werewolfs, vampires, killer robot space penguins, take your pick of fantasy imaginings.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 10:52:23 AM by TJJ »
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Megas

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Re: Great humble "freedom" bundle!
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2017, 10:53:08 AM »

Quote
Requiring proof to deny the existence of something makes no sense
<Shrugs...> Make perfect sense to me.  I have nothing more useful to say.
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Thaago

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Re: Great humble "freedom" bundle!
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2017, 11:25:46 AM »

My personal opinion of why the Constitution/Declaration of Independence is so important to Americans is that it is a summary of the very reason the nation exists: the war which created the country was in many ways an ideological civil war, and this is the distilled essence of the ideology. To an American, when everything else is stripped away, the rights so provided define what makes America America and and what makes us American. Being 'an American' is THE central pillar of self identity for us, above party or regional identity, so changes in the constitution or its interpretation are changes to the core of a person. Passions tend to rise :P.

America is also an extremely nationalistic country, a trend started in the american civil war that has only accelerated since. To help understand, I highly recommend reading the text of the Gettysburg Address:

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Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.


Context: the American Civil War was a horrific conflict that was far more deadly than anyone had thought possible (to some it is the first 'modern' war), and it traumatized the nation. The first sentence and the last sentence of the address summarize the collective resolve and identity forged in the bloodbath.
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Gothars

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Re: Great humble "freedom" bundle!
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2017, 02:56:34 PM »

This excursion has been interesting, but please don't let it drift into religious debate. Not the place for that.
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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.
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