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[Cik]

yeah, i mean if savescumming is allowed by the game (because the mechanics allow you to do it)

then using a console to spawn a ship is allowed by the game because the game allows installing mods and altering memory

it's not like there's an explicit "SAVESCUM THIS" button, or something

[ChaseBears]

except in Prince of Persia

[nomadic_leader]

Cheating is like obscenity. We know it when we see it. And save scumming is cheating.

Ah prince of persia, now there was a game. On my first playthrough (I had no manual) I got somewhere to the middle without understanding what this countdown was all about. Then the princess dropped dead. Then I had to start over from the very beginning. And I enjoyed it.

If I made a game I would do everything I could to drive away save scumming. Targeting a game to people who want to explore the gameworld, and who have self control and are willing and able to adapt creatively to setbacks opens up a lot of design possibilities. Rather than players who want to grind so they can collect new objects. (That's called a job)

Maybe Starsector should autosave anytime you land on an inhabited planet, or anytime you start or finish a combat.

Little less attachment to your particular save and the objects collected, and a little more interest in enjoying the ride in a roguelike way.

[Megas]

Cheating is breaking game rules, right?  To those who universally declare "save scumming is cheating" in every game: In the games that do not (care or try to) prevent it, What game rules are broken?

From what I see, everyone who has declared that seems to have relied on emotion/conventional-wisdom/group-think/political correctness/whatever or a trope-like universal "how things ought to be" rather than what that individual game rules or mechanics actually allow or forbid within the game.  Or maybe just a knee-jerk reaction coming from one game where save-scumming is most certainly cheating (because it does not allow save-scumming within the game) to another where save-scumming is fine or even required to win.  It could be a bit cheap, maybe unsportsmanlike, and those who view games like sports might take offense.  Those who view game as war, or at least a problem to be solved by any means necessary, anything not forbidden by the game goes.

Yes, grinding is like a job.  This is why I think there is no such thing as too fast XP gain.  This is why I like leveling hard cap coming next version.  (For soft cap, it varies by player, depending how much time his has and how much power he wants.)  I hope field repairs makes save-scumming for Hyperions or other stupidly rare ships nearly on par with Diablo II's elite uniques obsolete.  Many people want the best, and may and will take extraordinary steps to get it.  I have done it, I have seen many do it during Diablo II's heyday.

Maybe Starsector should autosave anytime you land on an inhabited planet, or anytime you start or finish a combat.

That would be fine for Ironman.  Right now, Ironman is not really Ironman, due to being able to leave the game (via menu) in a middle of a fight then restart and reload.  Normal mode makes that trick pointless.  (Why savescum in Ironman when Normal game is the same but faster?)  If Ironman can be savescummed, why do we need Ironman?  Those who volunteer for Ironman do not need that mode as currently implemented.  Ironman would be useful for forcing Ironman (for those who like the idea but may not honor it if faced with a catastrophic loss), but it does not do that.

P.S.

Little less attachment to your particular save and the objects collected, and a little more interest in enjoying the ride in a roguelike way.

If the game was fast to playthrough like an arcade game or coffeebreak game, where I can finish in one setting, I can see that.  For a game that can take days (or weeks of sporadic play), I do not want to grind the game over and over for the sake of a ride.  Early game for many games is boring due to low-power and limited options.  Saving a game when it is late and I have the best means I can have gratuitous space battles and like on (some) demand.  I got Starsector for big space battles (solo or deploy all carnage), no way I can do that with a lone frigate in early or even a ragtag fleet during midgame.

I view games as games.  If I want a story, I would read a book or watch a movie.  Admittedly, it seems many modern games blur the line between game and movie and/or novel.  Dragon's Lair was ahead of its time.

[Thaago]

Calling save scumming cheating is the wrong way to talk about this. The question is just whether its fun/engaging for the player. We should allow things that are fun, and ruthlessly destroy things that are not fun, but optimal.

Example: I will sometimes save the game, pick an incredibly overpowered fleet to fight (at least compared to my 2 frigates with no officers or skills), then play it over and over again until I "figure out" (or get lucky enough) to beat it. I'm most certainly 'cheating' - I get many more in game rewards than I would get if I played ironman mode, even if those rewards are superfluous to why I'm doing it. But I'm also having a lot of fun, so I think this is something that should be left in.

Savescumming for rare ships is not fun. Therefore we should either have NO ability to get rare ships from a battle (I realize that technical limitations can make closing every loophole difficult, but thats the goal) OR have some way in game of getting those rare ships that is faster in real world time than save scumming. If it takes three hours to savescum for a hyperion, but two hours to do the various quests, missions, and exploration needed to get a hyperion, it is optimal to not savescum. And its fun, too (or at least more fun than reloading an easy fight over and over). There are just currently no reasonable player actions that can give a rare ship.


But on the topic of save scum being cheating:
To those having a hard time understanding why Megas says scumming isn't cheating: There is a set of games where the player is expected or even required to take advantage of every single thing they possibly can in order to beat it - from simple things like memorizing the pattern of guards before reloading to actively finding glitches. For those games there is an immense pride that comes along with beating the game, and a large part of why the game is enjoyable is being able to overcome it.

If you have played those game, then reloading saves isn't cheating: its an expected and normal part of how you 'beat' a game. This kind of thing has fallen out of favor in recent years (going on decades? holy crap) but I remember playing games where I had to get my timing sequence of button presses down to a single in game timestep in order to get past areas. Reloading a hundred times to beat it was just normal.

Cheating is most certainly in the eye of the beholder, and in a single player game it doesn't matter. I just want to be able to abduct and torture bribe tri-tachyon officers until they sell me a damn Astral!

[Mini S]

I once saw an Astral in a Independent military market. I don't know if it is rarer or not than in the Try-Tachyon military.
Now back off topic I only consider save summing cheating if the game says it is not allowed or actively prevent it which is normally the case with ironman. Starsector is still in development and some major changes are still to come(exploration and outposts) i don't believe preventing save summing in Ironman is in Alex prioritary todo list.

[Megas]

@ Thaago:  I remember at least a few such games.  One of the more memorable games for the NES was Ninja Gaiden (plays like Castlevania on NES).  Many people thought the game was hard.  For me, it got easier as I learned stuff, and then the challenge became beat the game with a single life.  The game might have unlimited continues, which could analogous to saving.  Ninja Gaiden on NES is nowhere near "platform hell" difficulty.

@ Mini S:  Independents can sell any basic ship, except Scarab.  By basic, I mean no faction variants like Pather ships or Hegemony (A)s or XIVs.  Since their ship pool is bigger, you probably have less chance of them picking Astral over all the others.  That said, is this market Nortia?  If so, that place has a size 4 market and should not sell it due to being too small.  Maybe this is a modded game where you have a bigger Independent market?

If you want best market access to high-tech ships, Tri-Tachyon is the best place to look because they do not sell low-tech ships bigger than frigates.  Tri-Tachyon does sell plenty of midline, much to my chagrin.  I get sick of seeing a Hammerhead glut in Tri-Tachyon markets, mostly because after I buy the better stuff, Hammerheads are all that is left, and they just will not go away.  (And if I try to buy out the market, Tri-Tachyon spews more Hammerheads for me to buy.)

[Seth]

Don't suppose there's point in arguing how one should play singleplayer games. Cheating or not, you're doing it within your own game world and not ruining anyone's fun. Regarding SS, there are some serious setbacks that put you before the choice of brutal grind to get back up again, or starting new game and hoping for better streak of luck. If you're into iron mode, you have to make up a mind for specific approach, and be ready to start over several times. That being said, for particular fun you're looking for, average gamer always makes up in-house rules, that's the only way to prevent something like savescumming in iron mode, because let's face it, there are ways to avoid permadeath or game over in most roguelikes.

I don't see any point in using console though, as well as savescumming, why not use mods instead? They give much more variety + bigger chance to spawn needed ships in specific markets, which makes exploration both fun and rewarding. Regarding vanilla, I think there's a tiny chance to spawn any kind of ship in Independents Black Market, as others mentioned, but it's really not worth to hope for...

Also kinda hate the idea how good Tri-Tachyon is. I think I played around 3-4 games with Nexerelin (and several mod factions), I don't remember a single game where Tri was stomped, they always won, either in alliance with other factions, or left last man standing. In vanilla they are best choice for smooth playthrough, unless you're in some hardcore roleplaying. Would like to see factions put into more balanced play field.

@ Megas
If you're talking about Ninja Gaiden 1, than I agree that game was extremely hard, and also have to add that I failed to finish it no matter how I tried, but honestly I don't remember it having infinite continue option... NG 2 and 3 were VERY casual, both were like a walk in a park and much better than first game IMO (more gameplay mechanics = more fun from combat and platformer elements + level design was a giant step forward).

[Serenitis]

Cheating is most certainly in the eye of the beholder, and in a single player game it doesn't matter.

Honestly, I could not agree more.
You're not harming anyone else's gameplay experience, so why does it matter at all?

With respect to savescumming, I usually don't make a habit of it.
But I do tend to save fairly frequently and have no qualms about reloading and having another go if I lose something I consider "too valuable", or if I don't manage to capture a specific ship, or if I get dinged by the transponder mechanic trashing my rep for shopping in the bargain aisles.

It's not cheetin' if you can come back an' has an'nuver go, see?

[Megas]

@ Seth: I meant Ninja Gaiden 1.  2 seemed the easiest of the three (although someone I know who could not beat 1, could not beat 2 either).  3 seemed harder than 1, at least in later stages (maybe due to more bottomless pits or killer architecture), despite some new powerups.  3 also had limited continues.  Ninja Gaiden 1 had unlimited continues, but continuing at the final stage sent you all the way back to the beginning of the final stage.  If you were not good enough to easily reach the bosses then beat them, you may get stuck.  Ninja Gaiden 1 is significantly easier with pinwheel (may have been called jump-n-slash) subweapon cheese.  Pressing down or up (forgot which) plus attack, did normal attack instead of pinwheel (and this feature was undocumented and guide-worthy), and player could save the pinwheel to destroy bosses almost instantly.  (It was so powerful that it was replaced by the improved fire shield in 2 and 3.)

Back then, I wished home Ninja Gaiden (and Rygar for that matter) played more like their arcade counterparts.  Arcade Ninja Gaiden played more like Double Dragon or Final Fight.  It is hard though beatable in the first five stages, then the big difficulty spike in the final stage.

[nomadic_leader]

Yea, cheating in a single player game isn't a moral transgression. The main objection to save scumm is how profoundly unfun it is. If you're going to cheat, cheat in a fun way.

[Deshara]

Cheating isn't a moral failure, it's a failure on the game dev's part to design the game such that people won't want to cheat.
Which isn't a dig at alex cause it's in dev still and he's aware of it and all the parts that support save scumming are Under Construction

[Seth]

Cheating isn't a moral failure, it's a failure on the game dev's part to design the game such that people won't want to cheat.
Which isn't a dig at alex cause it's in dev still and he's aware of it and all the parts that support save scumming are Under Construction

Well, we definitely have to take into account that there are lots of different players with different skills and gaming approach. Alex can't design it to please everyone, and since main focus was on iron mode, I suppose this game leans towards more hardcore audience. There are those who enjoy getting punished over and over in some masochistic rogue-likes, and there are those who cheat in EVERY single game, even in easiest ones like Skyrim and etc, like my ex-GF, lol.

@Megas
I think I've beaten NG2 like 15 or 20 times total, never got tired of it. The thing that was bugging me the most in NG1 is that he couldn't climb walls, had to bounce off to climb, and that where my doom was awaiting. Enemies were tough too, but level obstacles were way more difficult for me, heh.

[Midnight Kitsune]

Cheating isn't a moral failure, it's a failure on the game dev's part to design the game such that people won't want to cheat.
Which isn't a dig at alex cause it's in dev still and he's aware of it and all the parts that support save scumming are Under Construction

Completely disagreed. Sometimes I will cheat in SS or other games to test stuff out or just to have fun! For instance, Red Faction Guerrilla with cheats is a GREAT stress relief game! And they also BUILD in the cheats as well.
Another thing is that built in cheats many times will have wacky or weird stuff enabled by them, like big head mode.

So yeah, along with what Seth said, cheats can actually help out with testing (which is what dev consoles are DESIGNED for) and they can also make things even more fun after you have beaten the main game

[Harmful Mechanic]

'Cheating' implies that someone is cheated of something. If you're playing a single-player game, the only person you can definitely cheat is yourself, of a fun play experience; and maybe the dev, of your money by pirating the game.

If you play a single player game competitively, either by comparing high scores and accomplishments or through means like the tournament, 'cheating' is determined by whoever sets up the comparison of scores or the tournament. Cheating is largely a matter of social agreement, where we basically agree not to be dicks to each other even when cheating is really, really easy (as in, say, boardgames). Cheating is about circumventing the designed rules of the game's system.

Exploits, on the other hand, are just quirks in the game's system; scenarios that the developer didn't forsee, or fractional advantages gained by doing something difficult, repetitive, or unfun. I wouldn't necessarily want to play a game with someone who rigorously used and forcefully pressed every fractional advantage in a game's rules, but i don't call it cheating if they do it, I just call them jerks or munchkins. But I have a kind of grudging admiration for it, even if it's not my kind of fun, just like I'm not interested in speedruns but I think it's neat that people do them.

I think save-scumming is crime and punishment neatly wrapped up in one; you're doing something repetitive and unfun to gain a fractional advantage. Okay; I don't feel like there's productive shaming to be done there.