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[OOZ662]

...so if you're keeping that Java up to date, it's known to become unstable. And I have no way of knowing how many mods you run.

[Megas]

instead of wasting time scumming, why not just spawn the ship using the console command

absolutely baffling

One, console command is not an option in an unmodded game.

Two, if I want to cheat to win, which is breaking the game rules, I prefer to cheat big, like adding an "I Win" button to win everything at the push of a button.  For example, add a ship ability to make all enemy ships explode, or better yet, add encounter option to erase all enemy ships before the fighting starts.

Three, cheating does not help with non-cheat playtesting.  Soloing entire fleet if that was not possible without cheating for max skills would not help Alex.  I would be called cheater and play the game like I am supposed to.  If I can get a high level character without too much grinding (it may take a week of dedicated play to get endgame character in Starsector, vs. month or more to get enough top-tier gear for characters in Diablo II: LoD) then solo fleets.

Without cheating, save-scumming is the only way to get ships should the game decide not to sell you any ships other than Hammerheads, capitals, and civilians.

[MesoTroniK]

Save Scumming is cheating...

[Megas]

Save Scumming is cheating...

Unless the game deletes the savefile like in various roguelikes (e.g., Nethack, Angband, etc.) to enforce permadeath or whatever, I completely disagree.  Save and reload is yet another tool available to the player.

[MesoTroniK]

"I want X to happen and nothing else."

"So I will do Y, and load if I don't get X, as many times as it takes."

That is effectively no different from a cheat. Both are methods to guarantee a result you want that remove all uncertainty from the game.

[Midnight Kitsune]

Save Scumming is cheating...

Unless the game deletes the savefile like in various roguelikes (e.g., Nethack, Angband, etc.) to enforce permadeath or whatever, I completely disagree.  Save and reload is yet another tool available to the player.

Even with games like FTL and such that delete saves, there are almost always ways to get around it, usually involving killing the process
And SS's main mode will be ironmode

[Cik]

cheating with the console command is hardly different than scumming. and scumming takes a million times as long.

i mean, if you for some reason are so intent on getting the uberships, and the game won't cooperate due to some very old and not-very-functional mechanics, i hardly think it's forbidden to just help it along.

just delete a few million credits from your stash or something and call it even, sheesh. no need to waste such an enormous quantity of time cheating in order to cheat slightly less than just using a console command.

[Histidine]

I do see a distinction between boarding savescum (goes against the spirit of the game, but is technically permitted*; in fact an option to prohibit it is specifically provided for those who want it) and the console command gimme (not permitted by the game's normal ruleset*; in fact it isn't even possible to do in vanilla). Also savescumming can give the feeling of being more valid, since the player still has to do some "work" for it (by fighting the fleet etc.)

*The indicators I use are "Does the dev do anything specifically to disallow or prevent it?" and "Does this involve what any normal observer would call a cheat code?"

Though personally I don't go for the whole "deliberately seek out super ships" thing to begin with. I just pick up good ships as I encounter them; if a ship is in the store or comes up for boarding, and I decide I'll benefit from it, I get it.

[Cyan Leader]

Does it really matter if it's cheating or not?

Play the game as you'd like.

[Megas]

@ MesoTronk:  If the game gives me resources to remove uncertainty from the game, I will take advantage of them!  Taking advantage of guaranteed results given by the game is not cheating.  This is how you win in a grind of a game like Angband, where one mistake can kill you.  You use items or spells that do not fail (e.g., scrolls, spells with 0% fail) when you need them because you die next turn if they fail.

@ Midnight Kitsune:  Since scumming in Ironman in Starsector is still possible (quit when combat is undecided), the only difference is the time between reloads, because game exits to desktop instead of main menu, and I need to relaunch the game.  I play normal because it takes less time to reload a game.  If Ironman was the only way to play, you bet I would savescum just like in Normal.  I would simply put up with relaunching the game as much as it takes.  (Still takes less time than grinding for top-tier items in Diablo II.)

@ Cik:  Scumming when the game allows reloads is not cheating.  Adding a mod changes the rules of the game (not cheating by itself, if I start a game with it, but the game is no longer standard).  Big difference.

The reason I do not consider save-scumming cheating in Starsector and any other game that lets the player save and reload on demand is it is allowed by the game, and thus not cheating.  I only consider save-scumming cheating if the game does not allow it.  If I need to go outside the game and make backup files or otherwise use OS functions to get around the (rules of the) game, then it is cheating.  I cannot save-scum in Nethack, Angband, or DoomRL unless I copy-and-paste files with the OS instead of within the game itself.  I do consider save-scumming in those games cheating.

I also see scumming little, if any, different than continuing on Ghosts and Goblins or other hard arcade game (even encouraged since coin-op gets more money) or as part of a solution to somewhat random puzzles in '80s adventure games (e.g., You need to kill or incapacitate an enemy, but enemy may occasionally ambush and kill you as soon as you walk in the room to meet him.  Example, the axe troll in Zork I.)

[TaLaR]

@Megas:
That's some lawyer style approach to cheating.
Personally, I savescum against RNG only if total time to obtain wanted result is reasonable (a few minutes top, which is not the case with trying to capture Hyperion in SS). But do not particularly care whether I have to use OS to copy saves in process.

I'm generally not a fan of Ironman in more complex games, where whole playthrough does not fit within few hours. It just means replaying early game to perfection and avoiding anything remotely challenging/risky in mid-late game. So no fun times trying to solo a big fleet with single Medusa and no backup ships available (or whatever serves as analogy in particular game). Which easily leads to boredom.

[Techhead]

I only save-scum when I feel like I could have handled a situation better from a player perspective. If the game decides I shouldn't get a fancy toy, I'm not going to obsessively reload my saves until it changes its mind.

Then again, I often approach combats like a puzzle to be solved, and trying different approaches until I find one that works.

[Seth]

I like how this thread derailed.
Actually yes, playing SS in iron mode is much more fun than in normal, but as many mechanics aren't polished enough yet, some play styles are either pain or nigh impossible. Normal mode is very good thing to learn the game, I'm glad that IM is not forced as only game mode (like some other games do). Also, I can't say I'm very experienced at this game, but I'm not total noob either, but sometimes I cannot esteem enemy fleet power correctly and get stomped, and as most are aware, combat in this game really sways from steamrolling opponent or you, close fights with more or less even forces happen very-very rarely, for me at least. So if you suffer serious blow from early to mid-game, there are situations where it's easier to start new game than grind all over again, and there can be many bad encounters, especially early on.

[Megas]

@Megas:
That's some lawyer style approach to cheating.

Is it?  I do not think so, and I have explained why I think it is not cheating.  Some of you disagree for whatever reason, and that is fine, but anyone trying to convince me that save-scumming in a game that allows it (or at least does not try to prevent it) is cheating has failed to give me a convincing reason why that is the case.

[ChaseBears]

XCOM provides a good illustration. Sometimes a crucial shot would be missed - but a frustrated player could load an earlier save and take the shot again and again until they got the hit (or crit!) they wanted...certainly a case of removing uncertainty, grossly in the players favor.   XCOM has an option for a seeded RNG that will always produce the same sequence of rolls in a fight, which is nice both for eliminating temptation and being able to replay an earlier section of a fight without differing results. 

Save scumming isn't 'allowed' by the game - it's an unavoidable consequence of local saves. Even ironman games can be easily savescummed - only the player can deem appropriate the level of reloading they do.