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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Ship Recovery  (Read 97681 times)

DatonKallandor

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #90 on: January 22, 2017, 12:38:13 PM »

Is faster repair going to cost less or does faster also include more supply use per time spent?
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Alex

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #91 on: January 22, 2017, 12:41:17 PM »

Is faster repair going to cost less or does faster also include more supply use per time spent?

It's the same supply cost, so overall hull repair is cheaper. To make sure it's clear: it (both the increased rate and the lower cost) only applies to hull, not CR.
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Mini S

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #92 on: January 22, 2017, 01:50:00 PM »

Alex right now when you repair recover CR or BOTH it is only used the same amount of supplies could there be a repair cost and a CR recovery cost?
It feels weird when the costs to repair  a 1% hull and CR ship to 100% are the same to repair a 100% hull and 1% CR to 100%.
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Alex

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #93 on: January 22, 2017, 02:23:53 PM »

These used to be separate and it was just a whole lot of extra stuff to keep track of and show in the UI for no real benefit. I get what you're saying, but it's just not worth it.
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Morrokain

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #94 on: January 22, 2017, 02:36:48 PM »

1) Do all AI fleets also recover and redeploy battle-captured ships? If so, can we have an option in the faction file to disable this behavior on a faction by faction basis? It prevents modders from trying to keep factions' doctrines centered around a certain tech or ship style. In game, it makes sense for factions like pirates and independents to do this, not so much luddic path or tri-tachyons.

They don't do this at all. Except for conceptually, off-screen :)

2) I am a little confused as to the way the game differentiates between the current (D) class ships and "battle-made" ones. Am I correct when I say (D) ships are still normal ships to the game, and just have d-mods to start and a different sprite? Then if THOSE are destroyed, they become battle-made (D) ships and have the same sprite and more d-mods? I guess what I am getting at is +1 to custom (D) sprites since I made a bunch and want to use them haha

Hah - yeah, I'll see if I can work that in.

Basically - every ship hull or skin whose name doesn't end in (D) gets an auto-generated (D) version. Then, during recovery, the hull of the ship gets changed to the (D) version, but for ships that are already (D) - either because they started that way, or because they got converted as a result of previous recovery - that doesn't happen.

Hey great that's good news! regarding the first point and oh ok, that makes sense regarding the second point.

Thinking about it some more, how does it handle the case where the (D) version has the "Destroyed Weapon Mounts" d-mod? Will it ignore that one in particular (since its the only one that cannot be undone if I read that correctly) if a normal hull gets destroyed and converted to the (D) version through combat even though the sprite lacks the weapon mounts? If it doesn't though, then that would make it a permanent debuff to the ship. Seems likely its "between a rock and a hard place" territory without going to the trouble of making it reversible. Changing the weapon mounts to hidden/decorative instead of outright removing them might be a solution there.

Regarding the weapon role/strength hints for the new auto-outfitter: You said hints get auto-generated if they aren't there to begin with, am I correct in assuming we can set these ourselves in weapons.csv? Is that the only thing added to that file? I am actually pretty excited to see how that all works out.  
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Mini S

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #95 on: January 22, 2017, 03:14:06 PM »

Alex right now when you repair recover CR or BOTH it is only used the same amount of supplies could there be a repair cost and a CR recovery cost?
It feels weird when the costs to repair  a 1% hull and CR ship to 100% are the same to repair a 100% hull and 1% CR to 100%.
These used to be separate and it was just a whole lot of extra stuff to keep track of and show in the UI for no real benefit. I get what you're saying, but it's just not worth it.

On the campaign overview you could show the number when we see the "full report of supplies consumption" instead of showing one number for all repairs it would show the two and in the fleet screen where we have the supplies consumption for each ship there would be a number that would be all the numbers together and that number would have a tooltip showing all the individuals consumptions and the suspend repairs would not get changed as recovering CR could be taken in account as a repair.

This is how i would implement and it wouldn't be for no real benefit. As it would reward/penalise (not)/taking hull damage.
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Deshara

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #96 on: January 22, 2017, 03:47:50 PM »

[
(Anyway, I'm certainly not opposed to mechanical things being grim or unpleasant. What I'm sure I don't want is for "run around enslaving people" to be part of a core playstyle. You'd have to really handle it well and make a game be about that

I appreciate that you see that that wouldnt fit the theme of your game. It suits SPAZ cause wanton waste of human life is kind of a theme of the game, but SS comes off more as being about the resilience of man, and how even a cataclysm of galactic empire-destroying magnitude isn't enough to stop people from clawing out a place for themselves in the world
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Dri

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #97 on: January 22, 2017, 04:55:04 PM »

Maybe I missed it but are you just as likely to be able to recover a Paragon after battle as you are a Lasher? All just a roll of the same dice for everything?

Also, what is the chance again for a ship to break apart when disabled?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 04:56:36 PM by Dri »
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Alex

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #98 on: January 22, 2017, 05:56:02 PM »

Thinking about it some more, how does it handle the case where the (D) version has the "Destroyed Weapon Mounts" d-mod? Will it ignore that one in particular (since its the only one that cannot be undone if I read that correctly) if a normal hull gets destroyed and converted to the (D) version through combat even though the sprite lacks the weapon mounts? If it doesn't though, then that would make it a permanent debuff to the ship. Seems likely its "between a rock and a hard place" territory without going to the trouble of making it reversible. Changing the weapon mounts to hidden/decorative instead of outright removing them might be a solution there.

It won't restore missing or downsized (e.g: Sunder) weapon mounts.

Regarding the weapon role/strength hints for the new auto-outfitter: You said hints get auto-generated if they aren't there to begin with, am I correct in assuming we can set these ourselves in weapons.csv? Is that the only thing added to that file? I am actually pretty excited to see how that all works out.  

Correct. Don't remember if it's the only thing added :)


On the campaign overview you could show the number when we see the "full report of supplies consumption" instead of showing one number for all repairs it would show the two and in the fleet screen where we have the supplies consumption for each ship there would be a number that would be all the numbers together and that number would have a tooltip showing all the individuals consumptions and the suspend repairs would not get changed as recovering CR could be taken in account as a repair.

This is how i would implement and it wouldn't be for no real benefit. As it would reward/penalise (not)/taking hull damage.

Well, for one, I don't think that's a benefit :) Not penalizing a certain amount of hull damage is a positive because it prevents low-tech ships from always being more expensive to field than the stated deployment cost, and is a good way to balance the fact that they always take some damage, compared to more shield-reliant ships.

Again, it's a metric ton of complexity without a compelling reason, other than "more realism". And when that's the only reason for doing something, that's a huge red flag.

Maybe I missed it but are you just as likely to be able to recover a Paragon after battle as you are a Lasher? All just a roll of the same dice for everything?

Yep.

Also, what is the chance again for a ship to break apart when disabled?

Defined per ship hull, but somewhere around 50% on average.
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Dri

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #99 on: January 22, 2017, 07:05:45 PM »

Were any of these features for patch 0.8a extremely difficult for you as a programmer to get up and running? What system (or cluster of similar systems) took the lion's share of effort?
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SafariJohn

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #100 on: January 22, 2017, 09:56:05 PM »

Will the procedural D ships have the same description as current D ships? If so, might non-procedural D ships get more unique descriptions to differentiate them?
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Sy

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #101 on: January 23, 2017, 01:35:12 AM »

OOOOH! ALL OF MY YES!! this is exactly what i was hoping for when you mentioned a new industry combat playstyle: building large fleets of disposable low-quality ships recovered from previous battles! and along the way it gets rid of the arbitrary boarding limit weirdness, alleviates the issue of ship availability in the late-game being too reliant on RNG and not enough on credit cost, and provides ways to make ship losses in general less frustrating... wow. :D

also, i think it will help a lot with making pirate campaign runs viable/fun! not only is the swarm of captured, half-broken ships thematically very fitting, it also means the lack of access to good ships through military markets becomes much less crippling.


a bunch of random thoughts:

1) since a few people mentioned that losing battles is still just as punishing as ever if you can recover ships only from won battles: you mentioned a while ago that you were thinking about making all battles produce a debris field that fleets can then pick through, rather than immediately giving loot. is that still a thing/possibility? with ship wrecks now becoming a pretty big deal, and the ability to keep specific ships in your fleet from ever being destroyed completely, debris fields could provide an opportunity to recover some of your losses even after a defeat or retreat.
depending on whether the enemy fleet who got you is sticking around to pick through the debris themselves (pirates probably would, patrols and traders probably wouldn't), you might have to hide somewhere nearby until they're gone, but could then return to see if there's anything left for you to salvage. even if the enemy took the most valuable wrecks and pieces for themselves, you might still be able to partially recover your losses through stuff they left behind, especially if you're already specialized in this industry combat playstyle.

2) i agree with what others have said regarding the (D)-ships in the current version, i think it would be a lot better (particularly for new players) to clearly label pirate-specific ship versions as such, in a way that will not be confused with the recovered d-mod ships.
and somewhat related to this, i would also really like to see some way to visualize the scrappiness of recovered d-mod ships, both because it would help with making this combat playstyle feel more distinct on more than just a mechanical level ("fly, my rust buckets, fly!" *maniacal cackling*) and because i feel restoring a ship to pristine visual quality along with mechanical quality would feel a lot more satisfying.

3) you could add increased weapon recovery chance to the Armored Weapon Mounts hullmod. i understand not wanting to put it together with the guaranteed ship recovery of Reinforced Bulkhead, to avoid making that one feel like a requirement (and i actually feel it might need a bit of a nerf, maybe to something like 30% increased hull, more in line with Blast Doors). but for some loadouts, the weapons are quite a bit more valuable than the ship they're on, so it would be nice to have some option to at least make recovery more likely, even if not guaranteed (for that specific loadout, in addition to the overall increased chance from the skill).

4) since autofit has an option to automatically apply Reinforced Bulkheads, could you add one for Blast Doors as well? seems like that would also be a good idea to have on many of the recovered disposables.

5) if all d-mods from ships like the pather skins can be removed while keeping their beneficial built-in ones, i think those ships could use some nerf to their base stats. i do like that capturing and restoring these ships can be a way to produce a more powerful version (since it takes a bit of luck, work, and more credits than just buying an unaltered version), but getting a 15 OP frigate hullmod for 0 OP instead does seem a little bit crazy. ^^

6) with these new features about making low-quality ships worth fielding as the player that are currently only really useful as low-difficulty enemies: can Buffalo MK.II get some love as well? :D like reduced cost and maybe even a bit beefed up durability? i believe lorewise, it's supposed to be a weak but cost-effective alternative to proper military ships, with above average armor to partially offset its poor mobility and lack of shield. but in reality it's not ever worth buying. it actually has significantly less durability than other, shielded destroyers (less than a Hound, even!), only 120 seconds PPT for some reason, and yet it costs almost as much as an Enforcer...
i just have a sweet spot for these ultra-low-tech combat conversions of civilian ships. Mudskipper MK.II is a deathtrap for anyone unlucky enough to crew it, but cheap enough to potentially be worth using as the player, especially if we have a guaranteed way to recover it when it inevitably gets blown up (albeit at the expense of some supplies and added d-mods). but Buffalo MK.II just isn't really worth using, and that makes me sad. :/

7) you could still keep marines for boarding, as part of the new system: make a portion (something like ~20%?) of recoverable ships cost marines to recover, with the benefit of adding no or less d-mods to the ship and maybe increasing weapon recovery chance. with how the new system works, it should probably just state a number of required/consumed marines rather than a probability of success based on the number of marines in your fleet, something like "boarding and capturing this ship will require a team of at least 50 marines, with expected losses between 5 and 20 marines". the average cost of 'consumed' marines would be lower than having to restore the ship at a port, but still high enough to only do it for ships the player wouldn't treat as just disposable cannon-fodder, and with the added requirement of shipping a large number of marines around.
this would probably be more about flavor that any significant gameplay impact, so i understand if it's just not worth figuring out the exact mechanics and numbers, but i still quite like the idea of keeping some troop transports filled with marines around for boarding opportunities.


anyway, i'm excited, in case you couldn't tell. or, well, i was excited already.. but now i have another thing to be excited about! \o/
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #102 on: January 23, 2017, 02:31:37 AM »

Maybe I missed it but are you just as likely to be able to recover a Paragon after battle as you are a Lasher? All just a roll of the same dice for everything?

Yep.

Also, related question. Do we NEED to have the sufficient prize crew to capture the hsip, or is that just a suggestion and we can immediately 'mothball' it or accept malfunctions? If so what's to stop us from stuffing a hound with supplies and (somehow) disabling a capital ship and capturing it?
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #103 on: January 23, 2017, 02:44:08 AM »

Maybe I missed it but are you just as likely to be able to recover a Paragon after battle as you are a Lasher? All just a roll of the same dice for everything?

Yep.

Also, related question. Do we NEED to have the sufficient prize crew to capture the ship, or is that just a suggestion and we can immediately 'mothball' it or accept malfunctions? If so what's to stop us from stuffing a hound with supplies and (somehow) disabling a capital ship and capturing it?
You'd have to beat the rest of the fleet as you still only get to recover (enemy) ships on wins.
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Gothars

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #104 on: January 23, 2017, 03:10:32 AM »

A Hound won't do, but I can imagine a tactic were you take some missile boat (e.g. Kite) to assist an allied fleet, finish off damaged enemies and expand your fleet that way. Don't see anything wrong with that :)



add increased weapon recovery chance to the Armored Weapon Mounts hullmod.

Good idea.

 
you could still keep marines for boarding, as part of the new system

The new mechanic is more salvage than a boarding action, though.
I'd love boarding as a separate mechanic, not to get hulls, but as a less violent alternative to battle. E.g., a outgunned trader could agree to let you send marines over to confiscate some of their cargo. Also, as some one mentioned, exploration of derelicts.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 05:15:26 AM by Gothars »
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