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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Ship Recovery  (Read 97703 times)

nomadic_leader

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2017, 10:54:26 AM »

Ok, so I haven't read any of this thread, only the blog post.

These are good changes because starsector is about having a fleet of a bunch of ships, not just one ship (except as an outlier playstyle or at the very beginning of the game.

The boarding reforms address most of my long held problems with the boarding mechanic in the game because the game's focus, as I stated, is on the fleet, not the ship. So I don't anticipate personally whining endlessly about this anymore.

The D mod thing also incorporates what i think is a good approximation of  the gradual decay and wear and tear on ships; it's something I am glad to see; it will encourage me to try new ships out as the old decay.

Then finally the "restore everything to as good as new" option is for all the "bauble collector" type players who don't really understand what the game is about, but it will make them happy and reduce a lot of forum chatter. You do see people like this in yachting, who will spend ridiculous amounts to repair some boat they would be better off replacing entirely.

So it's all good. :)

My one suggestion/reservation:  The distribution of the various skills in the 4 aptitudes is thematically confusing. Like, the crew saving skill is in, industry, rather than leadership where it would be expected. And yet, for some reason the ship saving thing, called "Fleet logistics skill" is over there in leadership. (Also work a bit more on the explanation). That one seems like it could be in technology.

It is all a bit confusing. What I mean is; don't be afraid to totally rearrange or eliminate the aptitude categories for skills. Possibly you'll rebrand these in a way that makes sense; right now on paper it just seems a bit disorientating.



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Deshara

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2017, 11:08:47 AM »

Soo since you have ship-breaking worlds, any chance of adding in a new contract for bringing d-class ships to a ship-breaking world? Like, low-level content wise it could be one type is just "we have a quota to fill, if you bring us x d-class ships to scrap for machinery to make up for a industrial equipment shortage (or price spike) we will buy them from you ignoring the current hull condition" (allowing a crafty industry player ready to upgrade their fleet a handy way to purge old craft they no longer want but never have need to field to suicide)
And for high-level faction-facing content, "this war has landed us a military contract for detailed firing analytics on Hegemony ships, and we can't get our hands on a flight-functional capital ship. If you bring us a Onslaught-class ship we will buy it from you (at less than market value but higher than d-class value fully-repaired), bill our client and handily overlook it's condition since we're blowing it up anyway"
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Camael

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2017, 11:54:18 AM »

Sorry, can not read through five pages now because I would explode in the meantime.

THANK YOU! (Yes. That is in caps. This is how excited I am...)

This is absolutely perfect. Less luck, more costs and decisions, more strategy. You got the carriers the way I wanted them, now You let me secure my prized possessions... I already loved the game as it was, but now this... awesome. (Just have to edit out the mandatory max level, but that's okay... as I can do it...)
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Mini S

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2017, 12:32:01 PM »

Alex since you said some time ago that salvage was temporary.
Can you make the salvage permanent but there was other fleets that would salvage too. Some ting like all battles Player vs NPC or NPC vs NPC would create a salvage and and every faction would have salvage fleets that would roam their space. that would cause the salvage that were in highly frequented zones to disappear quickly and on more remotes zones would last a long time if not forever. And the not picked ships are in that salvage.
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Johnny Cocas

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2017, 01:32:00 PM »

Yeah, the tools to manage the randomness almost entirely apply to the player's ships. I don't know - some randomness is fine, and I'm not on a quest to eradicate it entirely. Also, being able to recover everything would probably make ramping up a d-fleet too easy, and if it was more expensive, then it could get *too* expensive for that and only serve as a tool from rare ship recovery.

Hmm. What I could see possibly doing is adding a cost - say, some heavy machinery - to the initial recovery, that would range from 0 (for ships currently rolled as "recoverable") to a lot (for ships that would currently not be recoverable at all). But it's just more complexity and I'm not sure it's necessary; would like to see how things play out first.

Well, it would not necessarily mean that the player would be able to create massive fleets nor that it would be too expensive... The cost could go up the more ships you recover in a battle so after a certain point you could only reliably get x ships before they become too expensive. The first dos.. ship is always free ::)  Well, not free but cheaper, and if in a battle there were 10 recoverable ships with the increasing costs unless you had a really big fleet already you wouldn't be able to afford all of them, but again, if you have a huge fleet how many more ships could one possibly get before starting to get supplies/money issues? Would adding 10 more ships be worth all of the resources to recover? By the 5th ship the cost to recover should be pretty heavy already, but at least if there were two of even three good ships among those 5 the player could have the chance to get them instead of just one. This is how I feel when fighting huge fleets... I get one ship and that's it, the super cruiser that would follow the first huge slow crappy cruiser is forever lost :/

But lets ignore this for the moment and see how the new version works out first :)
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Dri

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2017, 03:07:34 PM »

I'm kinda curious if you've taken note of the average price of 1 unit of Supplies in your dev build (the one that has all the new economy changes). We talking like 40-50 credits per unit? Industry playstyle seems like it'll be hungry for Supplies even with its skills...
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Megas

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2017, 03:35:26 PM »

If boarding has been replaced by field repairs, and outposts are not yet featured, then what good are marines for now?  If marines are no longer needed for boarding, then Black Markets do not need them, and that money loop can be closed.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2017, 04:38:09 PM »

I really think marking the current D class ships as something else would greatly reduce the confusion of new players as I can see someone grabbing a D class ship and thinking they can fix it up like the other "D" class
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Megas

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2017, 07:31:44 PM »

After reading the blog one more time, I cannot help but think that any Tri-Tachyon aligned character I may build will likely resort to attacking and killing his commissioner's fleets (while transporter is off) to acquire the rare ships that cannot be found for sale enough, namely Hyperion, Scarab, and Tempest.  On the other hand, that is revenge for all of times I flushed millions into their markets and get Hammerhead and Hammerhead, among other low-tech and midline junk, for my trouble.
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Histidine

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2017, 08:04:21 PM »

In a battle involving allied fleets, how does it decide what the player gets to recover?
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Abradolf Lincler

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2017, 09:22:14 PM »

I love the ideas that allow you to get crew during recovery, all ideas that allow you to stay away from stations and "civilized" space i like. It would be cool to be a space nomad, fighting battles, hiding in nebulae nursing ships with construction rigs, taking slaves to man the engines and such, scrounging supplies and using what you can get your hands on, with zombiefied ships with weird weapon layouts, sounds amazing to me.
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Alex

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2017, 10:20:36 PM »

My one suggestion/reservation:  The distribution of the various skills in the 4 aptitudes is thematically confusing. Like, the crew saving skill is in, industry, rather than leadership where it would be expected. And yet, for some reason the ship saving thing, called "Fleet logistics skill" is over there in leadership. (Also work a bit more on the explanation). That one seems like it could be in technology.

It is all a bit confusing. What I mean is; don't be afraid to totally rearrange or eliminate the aptitude categories for skills. Possibly you'll rebrand these in a way that makes sense; right now on paper it just seems a bit disorientating.

The placement of the effects is almost entirely for mechanical reasons; e.g. it makes sense for the crew loss reduction to be in industry because that's the playstyle most likely to suffer from crew losses without great access to more mitigation (such as from having more officers). Pretty much any effect anywhere is justifiable - there's a ton of conceptual overlap between categories.


Soo since you have ship-breaking worlds, any chance of adding in a new contract for bringing d-class ships to a ship-breaking world?

Neat idea, I like it! Wrote it down.


Alex since you said some time ago that salvage was temporary.
Can you make the salvage permanent but there was other fleets that would salvage too. Some ting like all battles Player vs NPC or NPC vs NPC would create a salvage and and every faction would have salvage fleets that would roam their space. that would cause the salvage that were in highly frequented zones to disappear quickly and on more remotes zones would last a long time if not forever. And the not picked ships are in that salvage.

(To clarify, when you say "salvage" here I'm assuming you mean "post battle debris fields", which is rather different than general salvage.)

Been thinking along similar lines here, but this doesn't seem essential - more of a nice-to-have for flavor/liveliness of the world. Will see how much I manage to get to that kind of stuff!


I'm kinda curious if you've taken note of the average price of 1 unit of Supplies in your dev build (the one that has all the new economy changes). We talking like 40-50 credits per unit? Industry playstyle seems like it'll be hungry for Supplies even with its skills...

It ought to be around 100 credits if the supply/demand for supplies is balanced in the economy.


If boarding has been replaced by field repairs, and outposts are not yet featured, then what good are marines for now?  If marines are no longer needed for boarding, then Black Markets do not need them, and that money loop can be closed.

None whatsoever at the moment. Pretty sure that money loop is already closed anyway, though - there were bugs with per-unit prices in that particular scenario.


I really think marking the current D class ships as something else would greatly reduce the confusion of new players as I can see someone grabbing a D class ship and thinking they can fix it up like the other "D" class

I do see what you're saying. However, 1) they can fix them up, to a degree and 2) I really doubt they're going to want to in most cases - most of those aren't worth it and brand-new, cheaper versions are readily available. And in some cases where you *would* want to fix one up, such as a Mule with shielded cargo holds, well, you get exactly what you wanted there.


In a battle involving allied fleets, how does it decide what the player gets to recover?

None of the allied ships, and chance for enemy ships is modified by player contribution to battle.
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Solinarius

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2017, 11:19:37 PM »

So, is a multiplier applied to restoration costs depending on x number of d-mods? (Hyperion with 4 d-mods. Ouch!)
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HELMUT

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2017, 02:46:17 AM »

I don't really have anything more to add, just posting to say this is all looking quite good.

I'm really happy about the ability to restore Pather ships, as well as the slightly increased fleet size limit. Also, given what we've recently seen in the ongoing fleet tournament, i expect those industry "zerg" fleets to be pretty damn strong. Hyper aggressive fleets that can "grow" the more they fight? I'm definitely going to try that for my first 0.8 campaign.
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Jonlissla

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Re: Ship Recovery
« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2017, 03:36:34 AM »

Just when I thought I couldn't get any more wet, Alex keeps posting.

This is going to be a beast of a update.
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