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Author Topic: Differing Deployment Pts?  (Read 5672 times)

oldbone

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Differing Deployment Pts?
« on: January 16, 2017, 05:56:32 AM »

Sometimes, I'll engage a fleet and I have ~180 deployment points... and sometimes it's as low as 120.

CR is roughly the same when I've been checking it... several questions:

- what affects the deployment pts?
- any way for me to get more? :)

Thanks!
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Doom101

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Re: Differing Deployment Pts?
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2017, 06:44:38 AM »

If I remember correctly, the total size of your fleet vs the enemy fleet is at least partially responsible for that. if they have a bigger fleet then you they get more of the total deployment points for the battle than you do, and vice versa. Also you can go into the options and find the battle size setting and crank that up to max, that generally lets both sides bring in all the forces at their disposal.*

*except huge bounty fleets
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 06:47:22 AM by Doom101 »
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Mini S

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Re: Differing Deployment Pts?
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2017, 01:57:26 PM »

If i am not mistaken the deployment pts are calculated by the battle size(in game Settings) times the percentage that your fleet occupies of the total fleets involved.
It may have a few more factors but you will see it is basicly this.
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Mysterhay

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Re: Differing Deployment Pts?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2017, 07:44:35 AM »

What I don't get is the situations when you can or cannot deploy the same combination of ships, based on what order you select them. It must be to do with how the deployment allowances are rounded to whole numbers, I guess?

However, I am not sure if this is also an issue in the vanilla game (IIRC this situation is only caused when the deployment cost per ship is reduced by a percentage, which is an SS+ skill IIRC)
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Mysterhay

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Re: Differing Deployment Pts?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2017, 07:47:43 AM »

If i am not mistaken the deployment pts are calculated by the battle size(in game Settings) times the percentage that your fleet occupies of the total fleets involved.
It may have a few more factors but you will see it is basicly this.

Yes, that's my experience of it. There is a maximum split as well, in my game this is 60/40%. So if battle size = 500 the absolute maximum that one fleet can deploy is 300pts (60% of 500), no matter how much the enemy is outnumbered.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Differing Deployment Pts?
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2017, 10:38:18 AM »

I believe I've seen it split 200 points into 150-50, but that was as far as it went.
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Sy

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Re: Differing Deployment Pts?
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2017, 07:25:18 PM »

What I don't get is the situations when you can or cannot deploy the same combination of ships, based on what order you select them. It must be to do with how the deployment allowances are rounded to whole numbers, I guess?

However, I am not sure if this is also an issue in the vanilla game (IIRC this situation is only caused when the deployment cost per ship is reduced by a percentage, which is an SS+ skill IIRC)
that's exactly correct, it happens when ships have deployment costs that aren't whole numbers, which is never the case in vanilla. mainly it's due to the SS+ skill effect you mentioned, although it does also happen if a mod adds a ship that just has a fractional number as base deployment cost (which should be avoided because of this).
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Seth

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Re: Differing Deployment Pts?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2017, 12:53:41 PM »

I have asked this in different thread some time ago, and I'm still curious, what is the logic behind this? Why fleet point aren't split 50/50? The bigger fleet already has huge advantage because if he loses forces he can still deploy more fresh ships which will be up against battered forces with degraded CR. As of now, if you go against fleet bigger than yours, you can win only be exploiting and cheesing out AI, in any fair fight it's a guaranteed loss, no matter what you do, numbers still matter a lot, and considering you are accompanied by AI vessels from your own fleet, you cannot fully control what happens. AI can make some stupid moves, and because of this mistake you'll be doomed with already smaller fleet than enemy, but in fair split of DP you'd still have a chance. I seriously don't get it...
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: Differing Deployment Pts?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2017, 04:47:14 PM »

Some basic game design theory:

Given equal forces, the human player will always beat the AI, because humans are better at abstract and anticipatory thinking. So a single-player game has to give the AI structural advantages to present the player with an adequate challenge.
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Histidine

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Re: Differing Deployment Pts?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2017, 05:09:21 PM »

I have asked this in different thread some time ago, and I'm still curious, what is the logic behind this? Why fleet point aren't split 50/50? The bigger fleet already has huge advantage because if he loses forces he can still deploy more fresh ships which will be up against battered forces with degraded CR. As of now, if you go against fleet bigger than yours, you can win only be exploiting and cheesing out AI, in any fair fight it's a guaranteed loss, no matter what you do, numbers still matter a lot, and considering you are accompanied by AI vessels from your own fleet, you cannot fully control what happens. AI can make some stupid moves, and because of this mistake you'll be doomed with already smaller fleet than enemy, but in fair split of DP you'd still have a chance. I seriously don't get it...
We must be playing very different games. With a flagship of a reasonably competent player helping out, any halfway decently fitted player fleet with some semi-leveled officers and a healthy Technology skill OP bonus (+21% from Technology 7, Computer Systems 7, Mechanical Engineering 7 is entirely sufficient) will be able to easily beat an AI fleet 1.5 times its size with few losses (likely none). No funny exploits (e.g. corner camping) required either, just walk in and punch them till they stop moving.
Add Optimized Assembly and a full suite of combat skills for the player, and that outcome is the expected one for enemy fleets twice the size or larger.
This is true even in DynaSector, let alone vanilla (where half the NPC variants are bad to terrible, and none of them have ever heard of bonus OP).

Also: The DP ratio mechanic gives an actual incentive for the player to get a bigger fleet. Mid-battle replacements are nice and all, but in campaign if you're taking any losses it's already a suboptimal outcome.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 05:49:08 PM by Histidine »
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Seth

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Re: Differing Deployment Pts?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2017, 09:30:05 PM »

We must be playing very different games. With a flagship of a reasonably competent player helping out, any halfway decently fitted player fleet with some semi-leveled officers and a healthy Technology skill OP bonus (+21% from Technology 7, Computer Systems 7, Mechanical Engineering 7 is entirely sufficient) will be able to easily beat an AI fleet 1.5 times its size with few losses (likely none). No funny exploits (e.g. corner camping) required either, just walk in and punch them till they stop moving.
Add Optimized Assembly and a full suite of combat skills for the player, and that outcome is the expected one for enemy fleets twice the size or larger.
This is true even in DynaSector, let alone vanilla (where half the NPC variants are bad to terrible, and none of them have ever heard of bonus OP).

Also: The DP ratio mechanic gives an actual incentive for the player to get a bigger fleet. Mid-battle replacements are nice and all, but in campaign if you're taking any losses it's already a suboptimal outcome.
Huh, curious... I have several bounties (not sure they are vanilla) that are marked as hard and above, their ships are pretty tough, and when I engage them, DP forces me to basically only bring in half of my fleet. I'm gonna try to raise cap to 500 or more and see how it plays out, but my general playstyle is not having too big fleet and have many junk ships, because I don't rely on AI and it loses ships either way, so in the end I cover my losses much more cheaply. As for my own vessel, I usually sporting nothing bigger than Destroyer, more often Carrier (something like Gemini or Heron), but enemy ships from those bounties are no joke, tear hulls apart left and right.

Seems like main problem here is my attempt at roleplaying too much, but in either case, I don't like the idea of game making you build up huge fleet. If player goes for it, he can still overpower enemy by DP, leaving it at disadvantage and destroying it even easier. Actually current logic of DP backfires a little, on some occasions, smaller fleets than yours get completely smashed by yours, but if DP would be equal, AI still would have a chance taking down at least some of your vessels, so you would have to play more carefully. There are too much occasions when either you or enemy gets completely trashed and it decided basically in the initial engagement just by looking at DP.

On the side note, AI is exploitable, yes, but it is also surprisingly good and sometimes makes some unexpected moves which I might even fail myself, so I don't think we should be discounting it too much.
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Sy

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Re: Differing Deployment Pts?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2017, 11:28:47 PM »

As for my own vessel, I usually sporting nothing bigger than Destroyer, more often Carrier (something like Gemini or Heron)
that's probably your main issue: a player piloted flagship is a HUGE factor in how well a fleet does in battle against any enemy, but it requires using a flagship that can actually fight well, rather than just hang back and let the AI do its thing. and a player piloted destroyer will (usually) not be nearly as big a factor as a player piloted cruiser or capital. so if you're piloting carriers and/or destroyers in large end-game battles, you're giving up a ton of potential combat power.

soloing giant fleets with a single battleship is already too easy. not actually easy, mind, but too easy for how immensely efficient it is. that's despite player fleets usually being at a DP disadvantage.

also, as you already guessed, the bounties that show you a difficulty rather than only a credit reward amount are not vanilla, they are special bounty missions from Ship/Weapon Pack that are intentionally more powerful than most other AI fleets of similar size. and if you're using that mod, it probably means you also play with various balance adjustments from SS+ and DynaSector that make fighting end-game enemies harder than it is in vanilla, as Histidine mentioned.
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Seth

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Re: Differing Deployment Pts?
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2017, 05:34:51 PM »

Was messing around with deployment cap, with 500 battles feels much more epic but I get 20 FPS during clash which is pain to say the least, so I'm kinda curious, what is the general consensus on deployment cap, what values majority has I wonder?
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Sy

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Re: Differing Deployment Pts?
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2017, 06:14:04 PM »

really depends on what your hardware can handle, i think. i usually go with 400. at some point the battle map might actually become too crowded as well, but i do like big battles.
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Seth

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Re: Differing Deployment Pts?
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2017, 06:12:28 PM »

really depends on what your hardware can handle, i think. i usually go with 400. at some point the battle map might actually become too crowded as well, but i do like big battles.
Yeah, I guess hardware plays pretty big role here. Anyway, at the moment 400 feels like a sweet spot, it sometimes goes down to 30-40 frames during excessive slugfests, but gets back up quickly when most ordinance shot and several ships are down.
Still curious what cap others use.
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