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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Skill Overhaul  (Read 96975 times)

nomadic_leader

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #240 on: December 22, 2016, 12:29:15 PM »

About half the point of objectives is to help spread larger battles out a bit. It gets too crowded otherwise.

What's the other half?

Spreading is crucial (the slowdowns, the repitition). But Starsector has become much cooler and has sorta outgrown the static objectivces.  Would letting the player/AI deploy them before battle in chosen locations (that need to be ye distant from the edge of the map or another buoy) add anything?

What about more ships that participate in battles but from long distances away and constitute high value targets to encourage spreading? Stuff like the salvage rigs. Or sniper ships with the old super long range tachyon lance or long range missiles. With an AI type that strongly leads them to keep away from the fray.

Carriers would be able to do this except that fighters are so slow.
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Cycerin

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #241 on: December 22, 2016, 02:23:43 PM »

Sabot is pretty dumb in large numbers, but so is most limited-ammo missiles. The reason the sabot becomes extra dumb is because the only PD that deals with it then is mass PDAI tac lasers or guardian PD or the unlikely event of another target being close enough with flak or other PD while the sabot ship is aiming a volley at a more distant target. I would simply lower their effective range so that it's a true SRM - right now you can safely and easily fire sabots from outside of most ships' firing range (1500 or so range) and the first stage projectile lingers forever, ready to launch into a distracted target even after it flames out.

Sabots were really useless when they fired a volley of smaller projectiles, and need to be killy to be worth using. I think simply making their range lower deals with a lot of the possible grievances, as the sabot-firing ship is then more likely to be open to retaliation by the enemy fleet.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 02:27:05 PM by Cycerin »
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Dri

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #242 on: December 22, 2016, 06:11:49 PM »

Hmm, you guys actually have issues with Sabots? I guess I can see them being an issue for ships with < 600 armor but anything higher than that mostly laughs at them. Heh, high tech ships laugh at Harpoons and shield tank'em, low tech laughs at Sabots and armor tanks'em!

Alex, could ya tell us a little about the new Hammer Barrage missile weapon? I'm gonna say it fires something like a 4-5 Hammer torpedo salvo with a longish rearming time for the next salvo. How much ammo does it have?
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Megas

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #243 on: December 22, 2016, 06:53:52 PM »

Hmm, you guys actually have issues with Sabots? I guess I can see them being an issue for ships with < 600 armor but anything higher than that mostly laughs at them. Heh, high tech ships laugh at Harpoons and shield tank'em, low tech laughs at Sabots and armor tanks'em!
In fleet battles, I have more problems with Harpoons than other missiles because they are ubiquitous, and as soon as a ship gets high flux, the enemy launches a Harpoon storm at it.  If one of them has max Missile Specialization, you can kiss that ship goodbye!

For Sabots, they are great for the playership for being able to ignore PD and smash hull if it gets through shields.  Against a target with no armor, Sabot is a win-win.  It either does much damage to shields or does damage to hull.  The main weakness of the Sabot is the delay to reach second stage.  Sometimes, you get an opening that lasts a second or less, and a Sabot will not activate in time, but a Harpoon or other missile will.

P.S.  The most dangerous missiles for playership use before 0.7.2 was Reapers with max Missile Specialization.  Overloads shields even at half damage, and if it got through shields, anything up to Falcon size dies in one hit, and battleships up to four.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 06:58:46 PM by Megas »
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BillyRueben

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #244 on: December 22, 2016, 08:32:52 PM »

Plus it's so hard to envision what you mean by new combat playstyle... RTS style building of disposable drone ships or something?

Ahh, :-X. I want so badly to talk about it, but no.


Any chance that when we get our industry skills high enough we get to form Voltron: Defender of the Universe? If so, make sure every combat scenario has a two minute long unskippable cutscene of me forming Voltron, and I'll form the head.

But serious guess? In combat turrets and other supportive emplacements.


On a side note, glad to see the development is still going strong, and I can't wait to play this game again. Take your time though, still plenty of noobs in Titanfall 2 that need to learn who the king is.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 08:37:46 PM by BillyRueben »
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Gothars

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #245 on: December 23, 2016, 04:49:42 AM »

But serious guess? In combat turrets and other supportive emplacements.

Oh, wouldn't that be nice? And definitely something that was considered (a long time ago). Mh, but on the other hand there's not really something static that's worth defending, so I'm not sure how much use there would be for emplacements. Maybe just better area control, which would be interesting in itself.

My personal guess was something along the lines of better revive/repair after combat, so you can sustain heavy combat losses without actually losing ships. But Alex said that's not quite it.
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Dri

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #246 on: January 18, 2017, 03:43:21 PM »

Was it ever stated whether Salvaging skill would take 1-2 game days, and that you could be attacked while the salvage bar filled up?
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Tartiflette

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #247 on: January 21, 2017, 01:48:38 AM »

I got a though about a way to allow the player more flexibility in assigning skills while not going to full respec:
What if once you reached the "skill cap" you could still level up, but then you can only move one already assigned skill point around, instead of getting an additional one? Over time you could somewhat swap a few skills around instead of recreating a new character instantly like a traditional respec system. And of course it would only be for skill points, not aptitude points. And to avoid any exploit, this move wouldn't be cumulative: You would have to use it before the next level.
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Sy

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #248 on: January 21, 2017, 01:56:21 AM »

i like that idea! for the sense of some form of progression beyond level cap as much as for the ability to change skills i no longer want. :]

it doesn't change the issue with some skills' effects being problematic to remove, though. investing into a surveying skill early on, and later removing it again once you've done all the surveying you want, would always be the correct way to play. at least if that skill doesn't have any lasting benefits by itself beyond allowing to survey more difficult planets.
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Tartiflette

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #249 on: January 21, 2017, 02:30:14 AM »

Sure, there always be ways to optimize your play, but limiting this to skills and not aptitudes still forces you to make choices for your whole game, and with hundreds of planets in a game, I don't think you can really be done with surveying.
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #250 on: January 21, 2017, 03:34:46 AM »

hundreds of planets in a game, I don't think you can really be done with surveying.
I won't be so sure about that, though...
winks
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Kaucukovnik

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #251 on: March 05, 2017, 01:38:01 AM »

I have read only a couple of pages, so I apologize if my points have been already brought up.

I very much like the idea of high level combat being more defensive. Fresh captains are much more prone to fatal mistakes, while veterans may be long waiting for an opening on either side.

What I don't like is the idea of weapon range bonus based on fleet size.
1. Not sure if bigger fleet isn't already enough of an advantage on its own
2. I'd imagine that pooling sensor data wouldn't be some arcane, specialist technique. The ships already have sensors, communications and computers, so the only prerequisite is the software and maybe a crew member operating it. A relatively tiny dedicated piece of computing hardware at most, an overclocked i7 would probably do well. :)
3. It suggests that all weapons, regardless of technology, have their effective range limited by targeting. During combat we experience the fact that they simply deal no damage beyond their range. Is the additional info enabling more capacitors in my lasers and pouring more fuel into my missiles?

Speed and maneuvering bonuses make sense, as better information gives better foresight and the mechanic can represent small decisions that are not being simulated. Damage bonus makes sense too, more data about the target can help.
You can explain arbitrary balancing mechanics by technology, but at some point all reasoning becomes an equivalent of "a wizard did it".

When it comes to fleet combat being a compelling, viable option, the single biggest deterrent for me is the lack of control. I would love to be able to assign roles or simple scripts to my ships. Define preferred range based on shields, armor and hull, how far from allied ships should they stray in pursuit or retreat... Switching those behaviors during battle should cost command points.
Mechanic like this could also help the AI understand some custom loadouts better. "This one is an emergency defense weapon, please don't be suicidal with it".

For sensors I'd love something more involved than a "better sensors" hullmod. Not necessarily active systems like Apogee's probes, but some numbers to crunch. Building a dedicated sensor vessel with reduced profile relative to its scanning range, maybe have some per-weapon damage bonus so that pinpoint weapons would get more out of better sensors than big boom destructors.
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AxleMC131

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #252 on: March 05, 2017, 02:24:30 AM »

I like a lot of the points you raise Kaucukovnik, especially the bit about more in-depth ship orders in combat. I've been feeling for a while now that we need more detailed commands to give our ships, other than "escort this ship", "capture this point", etc. The place I feel we do have enough variation and control is perhaps the straight rules of attacking enemy ships, although could still be improved:
- Engage the target and its escorts in general (fair enough)
- Intercept the target specifically and ignore its escorts (ships assigned should treat this as a "kill it no matter what" and use any means necessary to destroy the target)
- Launch a strike run on the target (should assign not just bomber wings, but also ships mounting strike-type weapons and/or with a "Strike" variant. Not only that, ships should only make ONE attack pass and then GTFO to a safe distance whether they hit or not)
- Harass the target from maximum range (fair enough, good to annoy a large target while keeping small ships safe-ish)

There are so many ways you could over-complicate additional commands of course, and while I do have ideas for some, there's one thing I'd appreciate more than anything: Command Stacking. I would LOVE to be able to stack orders on top of each other for a specific vessel or group, and have it execute the commands one by one. For instance, I select a Wolf and give it commands to, in this order:
- Go capture that Nav Bouy
- Engage that Talon interceptor wing
- Escort my flagship
... At which point I would like the Wolf to capture the Nav Bouy, then once that's done engage the fighters, and once they are destroyed or no longer a threat, head back to my flagship and move into an escort formation. That wouldn't be that hard, right?
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