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Author Topic: Skill Overhaul  (Read 97364 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #135 on: December 19, 2016, 02:31:23 AM »

Regarding the retreat order, how about giving officers different behaviors? Cautious officers for example would always keep their guard up while retreating, allowing the player the option of having ships behave like that.

Problems with current retreat are not about flavor. It's fundamentally irrational to turn your back to enemy in most cases. Burn drive being pretty much the only possible reason, and even then Cerberus (and skilled Enforcer) can probably turn fast enough to not need to face retreat direction constantly.

I also don't like flavor-based reasons for obviously suboptimal and/or suicidal behavior. AI is far enough from perfect when doing it's best, no need to further hamstring it.

Flavor based decisions should only be involved when AI lacks capacity to figure out truly optimal course and has to choose between several suboptimal options.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 02:39:20 AM by TaLaR »
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Gothars

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #136 on: December 19, 2016, 05:09:35 AM »

3) the EW skill says "the uncapped total for each fleet is compared". since the higher ranks only increase the cap, doesn't that mean getting more than one rank will only ever be useful while significantly outnumbering the enemy? since in all roughly even battles (not just while soloing), the higher max won't have any effect, regardless of how high the opponent's skill is. or am i reading something wrong here?

! I completely missed that it compares uncapped ECM rating. Uh... does a cap for ECM rating even exist then? The way I'm reading it now the cap is only for the range effect. But talking of uncapped anything implies the existence of a cap at some point...
Also, the text does not specify that only the enemy range can be reduced more with a higher skill. So, taken face value, investing in the skill can reduce your own weapon range, if the enemy has higher ECM.


Here's an attempt to phrase things clearer:

Each fleet has an ECM rating, influenced by sensor jammers (+5% each) and respective hullmods. The total ECM of both fleets is compared, and the losing side's weapon range is reduced by the difference, up to an maximum of 10% without skills. Does not apply to fighters, affects all weapons including missiles.

Level 1
Every ship grants 1-4% (depending on ship size) to ECM rating.
Enemy weapon range reduced by up to 10%

Level 2
Enemy weapon range reduced by up to 15%

Level 3
Enemy weapon range reduced by up to 20%

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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

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Megas

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #137 on: December 19, 2016, 05:39:36 AM »

It should be even easier for ships to retreat while facing the enemy in Starsector than in other games because every ship has lateral and rear thrusters to strafe and backpedal as easily as moving forward.  In many other games, you only get to thrust forward or rotate.

Ships in Starsector should only turn their back when they can burn off the screen and leave the fight at that moment or when they want to use special systems like burn drive.  Otherwise, they should drift and face an attacker to keep shields pointed at them, maybe pop off a few shots at them, if able to.
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Mini S

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #138 on: December 19, 2016, 09:06:00 AM »

All i have to say about the general op reduction:

GoodBye my friend.


[attachment deleted by admin]
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Alex

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #139 on: December 19, 2016, 09:47:14 AM »

Spoiler
! I completely missed that it compares uncapped ECM rating. Uh... does a cap for ECM rating even exist then? The way I'm reading it now the cap is only for the range effect. But talking of uncapped anything implies the existence of a cap at some point...
Also, the text does not specify that only the enemy range can be reduced more with a higher skill. So, taken face value, investing in the skill can reduce your own weapon range, if the enemy has higher ECM.


Here's an attempt to phrase things clearer:

Each fleet has an ECM rating, influenced by sensor jammers (+5% each) and respective hullmods. The total ECM of both fleets is compared, and the losing side's weapon range is reduced by the difference, up to an maximum of 10% without skills. Does not apply to fighters, affects all weapons including missiles.

Level 1
Every ship grants 1-4% (depending on ship size) to ECM rating.
Enemy weapon range reduced by up to 10%

Level 2
Enemy weapon range reduced by up to 15%

Level 3
Enemy weapon range reduced by up to 20%

[close]

Thank you - yeah, the uncapped bit was just talking about the effect being capped, but on re-reading, that's not clear.

Changed the description; the per-level stuff I think is fine.


... or when they want to use special systems like burn drive. 

Not disputing the logic of what you're saying, but that is an extremely difficult call for the AI to make. Whether to turn around and burn while under fire is a tough decision, and what's worse is sometimes there's no right answer, so either decision the AI might make will look wrong and suicidal.
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Thaago

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #140 on: December 19, 2016, 10:09:04 AM »

Re: OP:
While I'm going to miss some of the loadouts, less OP is going to be better gameplay than more. In the current version there are few choices to make - you can give a ship all top tier weapons, the 3-4 top hull mods, and still max out vents. Most ships are sitting at maximum power with no downsides. With fewer OP we will be forced to choose what the strong points of our ships will be. My hope is that this will open the door to ship design being a component of fleet design, where you can design ships to work well together, but we'll see how that goes; the biggest problem currently is the tendency for ships to get separated from the battle combined with the lack of command points. I'm very much looking forward to regenerating command points.
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Megas

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #141 on: December 19, 2016, 10:36:46 AM »

Quote
While I'm going to miss some of the loadouts, less OP is going to be better gameplay than more.
Not so sure about that.  I disliked how few OP I got in 0.53 (or in missions, which is why, among glacially slow pace, I refuse to play them), and when skills came, I could afford to put stuff on ships.  More often than not, I left mounts empty because of too few OP.  I can see totally dropping Graviton Beam for Tactical Laser just to save OP for stuff my ship really needs.  Heavy Needler looks much less attractive than Heavy AC when OP is low.
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Questionable

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #142 on: December 19, 2016, 10:54:50 AM »

All i have to say about the general op reduction:
GoodBye my friend.
You think that's bad. In my case literally everything I used to make my Conquest the faster than some cruisers has been nerfed. I had it with maximum venting and capacity, so one side of the ship could fire off at maximum range while keeping zero flux boost bonus constantly up. With the nerf to speed skills, zero flux perk down to 1%, hullmods, max OP I don't think my speedy speed boy is going to drift through space at incredible speed any time soon.
Spoiler
[close]

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 10:57:48 AM by Questionable »
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Sy

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #143 on: December 19, 2016, 11:12:45 AM »

It's cumulative. Let me think about how to adjust that...
thanks. :)
Quote
Well, you can also deploy sensor jammers, deploy ships with hullmods that enhance the ECM rating, etc, so it's not just outnumbering.
ah, right.

i wonder if that industry "combat style" will also combine well with this... :3


You think that's bad. In my case literally everything I used to make my Conquest the faster than some cruisers has been nerfed.
look at it this way: it'll give you an opportunity to experiment with new loadouts for your favorite ship again. maybe you'll even find a new playstyle that you'll enjoy more than kiting.
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Dri

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #144 on: December 19, 2016, 11:36:05 AM »

The loss of Optimized Assembly perk + only getting 10% OP boost from Tech is pretty damn brutal—gonna ruin pretty much all my favorite builds. Yes, I'll have to think of new ones now, but they'll all obviously be less powerful and I won't soon forget that!

Nerfs suck! I can't really figure how this will make building ships more fun and satisfying now that I have to use fewer hullmods and lower grade weapons. But oh well, all in the name of balance, huh?

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Questionable

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #145 on: December 19, 2016, 11:36:22 AM »

look at it this way: it'll give you an opportunity to experiment with new loadouts for your favorite ship again. maybe you'll even find a new playstyle that you'll enjoy more than kiting.

I have experimented with the current options and slow juggernaut that has massive frontal firepower while very effective is just boring for me(same with fleet swarms). I have found that glass cannon is what feels best for me since it lets me be active much more often. If I could I would strip away all my armor form the Conquest to make it go faster if I could.
And while I am sure there will be new things to try out in 8.0 I fear my passion for speed will find no answer.
I guess my best option is to to pretend I am in Star Trek and gear towards exploring and surveying(wonder if Alex will make any ships that have a higher sustained burn but slower natural burn).
https://youtu.be/HnDtvZXYHgE?t=2
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ChaseBears

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #146 on: December 19, 2016, 12:56:26 PM »

The loss of Optimized Assembly perk + only getting 10% OP boost from Tech is pretty damn brutal—gonna ruin pretty much all my favorite builds. Yes, I'll have to think of new ones now, but they'll all obviously be less powerful and I won't soon forget that!

Nerfs suck! I can't really figure how this will make building ships more fun and satisfying now that I have to use fewer hullmods and lower grade weapons. But oh well, all in the name of balance, huh?


IMO, the reason it makes builds more fun is that there is more differentiation between builds.   Right now it is not that complicated to make a god ship for fighting everything, between good combat skills and good fitting skills.  It also creates much more synergy between your fleet and your flagship; for example, a battleship will benefit much more from dedicated escort builds, since it's much more difficult to modify the battleship to the point that it can maneuver with the average enemy cruiser at a minimum.  You do lose some flexibility in how far you can push particular ships, but this increases variety since ships will feel more explicitly different.
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Megas

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #147 on: December 19, 2016, 12:59:51 PM »

The loss of Optimized Assembly perk + only getting 10% OP boost from Tech is pretty damn brutal—gonna ruin pretty much all my favorite builds. Yes, I'll have to think of new ones now, but they'll all obviously be less powerful and I won't soon forget that!

Nerfs suck! I can't really figure how this will make building ships more fun and satisfying now that I have to use fewer hullmods and lower grade weapons. But oh well, all in the name of balance, huh?
I agree.  It is not more satisfying building ships with crushing OP shortage.  That was why I welcomed more OP and speed (from skills) with open arms in 0.54.  It also means I did not need all battleship or all carrier and fighter fleets in 0.53.  For fighting, smaller ships could compete better.

That said, in 0.54, all battleships was still optimal... for auto-resolve.  Max Leadership, max Technology, cram every big ship you can, auto-resolve every fight.  Auto-resolving everything made XP gain much faster due to fights finishing in seconds instead of minutes.

Before skills, Starsector character was practically max Leadership only (when Fleet Logistics determined maximum fleet size) plus all hullmods unlocked.
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Sy

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #148 on: December 19, 2016, 01:11:53 PM »

The loss of Optimized Assembly perk + only getting 10% OP boost from Tech is pretty damn brutal—gonna ruin pretty much all my favorite builds. Yes, I'll have to think of new ones now, but they'll all obviously be less powerful and I won't soon forget that!

Nerfs suck! I can't really figure how this will make building ships more fun and satisfying now that I have to use fewer hullmods and lower grade weapons. But oh well, all in the name of balance, huh?
yeah, nerfs aren't fun, but having 30% more OP, even without the reduced weapon cost perk, is a huge advantage, which causes some pretty serious issues:
  • it's one of the major contributors to the game starting off really hard (since your ships initially have about the same amount of OP as your opponents') and progressively becoming easier as you level up and battles become larger.
  • you really have to take max Technology aptitude and the two +OP skills in every game. they are so powerful that taking them isn't really a matter of preference or playstyle, it's a matter of doing it right or wrong.
  • it just screws with balance of ships, weapons and hullmods. a hullmod that isn't worth taking in the early game (and standalone missions) might become really strong when you have so much more OP to spare. the variety might sound interesting, but it makes it really hard to properly balance that hullmod so that it's never either useless or a no-brainer, since both of these are bad.

personally, i'll gladly have less powerful ships in the late-game, if it means addressing these issues. and keep in mind, the base OP of ships will be slightly increased across the board, to partially compensate for the lower bonus from skills. you will have less OP than you do now, but the main difference is that there won't be such a huge gap between your early-game ships and all enemy ships compared to your late-game ships.


I have experimented with the current options and slow juggernaut that has massive frontal firepower while very effective is just boring for me(same with fleet swarms). I have found that glass cannon is what feels best for me since it lets me be active much more often. If I could I would strip away all my armor form the Conquest to make it go faster if I could.
i quite like glass-cannon builds as well. but when it's rather easy to make a loadout that can keep firing at enemies without giving them much chance to shoot back (because they have neither the firing range nor the speed required to do so) then all other loadouts quickly become suboptimal. it's understandable that it's frustrating when your preferred playstyle is the one getting hit with the nerf-bat, but it's because right now that playstyle is pretty much just the best one. so for all players who do not prefer kiting at long range over all other playstyles, this should hopefully make their preferred ones more viable.

and it's not like the goal is to make the glass-cannon with long range builds unusable. the goal is to make that build one of several, close-to-equally powerful choices. :]
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 01:15:36 PM by Sy »
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ChaseBears

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #149 on: December 19, 2016, 01:21:58 PM »

yeah. you could also still use a glass cannon build, if you take measures to support it with other vessels.  Hammer and Anvil tactics have been mentioned, and there's some ships clearly designed with that in mind like the destroyer (?) with the fortress shield.
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