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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Skill Overhaul  (Read 96970 times)

Megas

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2016, 07:32:54 PM »

well, a hard cap isn't the only way to do that. While we cannot train up infinitely, we do get a LITTLE better if we keep training. A (sufficiently steep) soft cap works pretty well for that, I think
Sure, but it varies from player to player, depending how much time can be spared.  Some might spend lots of time, maybe too much, and get lots of power.  Some may not spend enough time to get the expected level of power.

@ DownTheDrain:
The main benefit for hard cap is the game making upper limit of power obvious and to stop excessive grinding.  Without caps, some may choose to grind excessively willingly... or compulsively (the latter not unlike addiction).

I have no power to deprive players.  I am giving my support to Alex's decision for the hard cap among those who oppose said decision.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 07:37:25 PM by Megas »
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DownTheDrain

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2016, 07:37:23 PM »

Sure, but it varies from player to player, depending how much time can be spared.  Some might spend lots of time, maybe too much, and get lots of power.  Some may not spend enough time to get the expected level of power.

That might be an issue if Starsector was a PvP-driven multiplayer game.
Since it is strictly singleplayer the amount of time someone else spends grinding has zero influence on your enjoyment of the game.

You might as well argue for an arbitrary hard cap on money or resources because some people don't have as much time to amass an in-game fortune.

edit:
I replied before you edited.

Quote
The main benefit for hard cap is the game making upper limit of power obvious and to stop excessive grinding.  Without caps, some may choose to grind excessively willingly... or compulsively (the latter not unlike addiction).

Stopping excessive grinding is not a benefit in any regard, unless the grinding was mandatory to enjoy the game before.
And compulsive grinding as an addiction (if that is actually a thing) won't be cured by Starsector introducing a hard cap. I mean really, let's be reasonable here and not grasp at straws for the sake of making an argument.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 07:40:29 PM by DownTheDrain »
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Megas

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2016, 07:47:02 PM »

Since it is strictly singleplayer the amount of time someone else spends grinding has zero influence on your enjoyment of the game.
That is not the issue.  The issue is to stop excessive grinding for whatever reason, even if the player may enjoy grinding itself or grudgingly tolerates grinding as a means to the end he wants (usually power).
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2016, 07:48:04 PM »

@DownTheDrain
I hope you know Megas is a bit ... eccentric when it comes to how he plays his games.  Most of the time he plays it so vastly differently from the rest of us that we just kinda set him aside.

Well, now that I've had a chance to see this, seems interesting.  As per usual, I shall wait and see how this all pans out once the patch gets released.  Way too much stuff has changed for me to really give an opinion on much.
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DownTheDrain

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2016, 07:54:59 PM »

Since it is strictly singleplayer the amount of time someone else spends grinding has zero influence on your enjoyment of the game.
That is not the issue.  The issue is to stop excessive grinding for whatever reason, even if the player may enjoy grinding itself or grudgingly tolerates grinding as a means to the end he wants (usually power).

The issue is to stop excessive grinding even if the player enjoys that?
So in other words the main goal is making certain players have less fun for no particular reason?

Care to explain why that would be in any way desirable?

@DownTheDrain
I hope you know Megas is a bit ... eccentric when it comes to how he plays his games.  Most of the time he plays it so vastly differently from the rest of us that we just kinda set him aside.

I don't know him but I'm starting to regret getting involved in this argument.

Quite frankly, I really don't care how eccentric he is or how differently he plays.
What I find hard to tolerate is trying to limit how other players are allowed to enjoy the game even though it doesn't affect me or him in the slightest.
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2016, 08:12:22 PM »

Didn't Alex clearly state that the reason why the cap was introduced was to make early game choices more significant? I'm not sure why you guys are so focused on the grinding aspect.
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Dri

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2016, 08:17:47 PM »

It's cause once you reach the level cap, you can already beat the game and be done with it—so why not keep the softcap to let players grind out more levels if they really want to. Sandbox game and all that.

That aside, how does one get up to 100% CR now that crew levels are gone and aptitudes don't grant improvements? Did I miss reading something?
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Cycerin

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2016, 08:22:02 PM »

I think encouraging meaningful decisions takes precedence over anything else, this isn't a dungeon crawler. Growth can come from different things than levels. Character skills should be part of strategy not just a constant ++++ to your overall strength and utility.
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DownTheDrain

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2016, 08:25:47 PM »

Didn't Alex clearly state that the reason why the cap was introduced was to make early game choices more significant? I'm not sure why you guys are so focused on the grinding aspect.

That's a different argument altogether but I wasn't arguing with Alex or questioning his reasons for the change.
Megas said that he liked the hard cap because "it puts a limit to compulsive grinding done by perfectionists" and since then the discussion evolved around me trying to figure out why he feels that is an improvement or why he even cares how others enjoy the game.

That said, sorry for derailing the thread, I'll drop it now.
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Alex

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2016, 08:52:55 PM »

Let me just say this: whatever the level cap ends up being, it'll be super easy to change if you want to.

For me, I think the ideal scenario would be a level cap of 40 or so, with some other advancement possible after that, but not through levels, though possibly involving character points here and there. Of course, that requires more campaign content to pull off, which isn't quite there yet. Basically, I don't want players to feel like they have to keep grinding to be in the best place possible before they start doing Big Things.
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Thaago

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #70 on: December 17, 2016, 09:15:59 PM »

My take on the level cap: it comes down to the intended game design. Players will often do things that are not the most fun, but are easy, in order to advance their goals: grinding in most games falls under this aspect. Any game should eliminate unfun (but easy) ways of achieving goals in favor of more exciting paths. Of course this requires said paths to exist, so I guess we will all have to wait for Big Things.

I'm in favor of a hard cap on the number of points, but earning respec points after max level so that a player can keep playing and slowly change their character. In response to the technical challenges of respeccing (how to avoid having the benefit of the skill after losing it), how about having the respec points require that you first divest yourself of the resource? For example, a player has the max number of officers, but wants to get rid of a point of that skill. First they need to fire 2 officers. Off the top of my head the skills as they stand don't have complicated conditions to check for, but that could have changed.
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Dri

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2016, 09:30:53 PM »

I think the Industry combat style is gonna be the good ole' ZEEEERG! You'll be able to mass produce ships on the cheap and deploy more of them to swarm enemies into space dust.
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Cik

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2016, 09:39:07 PM »

looks good, my only concern is the 25 ship limit. it seems kind of strange to literally force the player to be outnumbered in the late game when the AI doesn't have to follow that rule. can it be removed?
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Questionable

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2016, 09:43:30 PM »

Since it is strictly singleplayer the amount of time someone else spends grinding has zero influence on your enjoyment of the game.
That is not the issue.  The issue is to stop excessive grinding for whatever reason, even if the player may enjoy grinding itself or grudgingly tolerates grinding as a means to the end he wants (usually power).
I like the hard cap.  It puts a limit to compulsive grinding done by perfectionists who think no such thing as too much power (or do not feel perfect without having everything).  For people who are hardcore and have lots of free time, their level cap may be much higher than someone who is casual or who (may be hardcore but) cannot afford the time to grind characters.  It is nice (and possibly refreshing these days) for a game to say "You played enough! You have enough power!  Beat the game with what you have and play something else or get a life!"

I for one am glad people who pay money for games are treated as the dirty addicts they are. Now if only we could make the game shut itself off every 1 hour and tell the player he needs a break and also limit to 2 hours per day. Finally the game should permanently uninstall itself after 50 hours of total gameplay and we could have the nanny game we all deserve.

Let me just say this: whatever the level cap ends up being, it'll be super easy to change if you want to.
How easy? In an ideal case I would just have a soft cap where gaining additional levels becomes harder. This is not so I can get the power I need or grind because I feel incomplete, but so I can continue playing and have a sense of progression.



Quote
Zero-flux bonus at up to 1% flux. So, can keep it while shields are on and while firing beams, but that's about it.
Rip speed builds. Used to be able to make a specific build with maxed out vents and capacitors to be able to fire Gauss cannons on conquest while keeping the speed bonus.

I just hope the "perks" don't end up with League of legends favor, where you get +2% here and another +1% there and +10 hp there. Yes, you have a statistical advantage, but it doesn't feel significant.
Another concern is that a lot of the times what ever "overpowered" thing gets nerfed that only forces people to move to something else(so at best you are forcing people to change playstyles) which leads to that thing getting nerfed as well, which leads to everything being watered down. This kind of thing is cancerous as it is in PvP games and I come to single player games to avoid that. Hope that's not how it will end up feeling in the end.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 09:46:22 PM by Questionable »
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PCCL

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2016, 09:47:17 PM »

Let me just say this: whatever the level cap ends up being, it'll be super easy to change if you want to.
How easy? In an ideal case I would just have a soft cap where gaining additional levels becomes harder. This is not so I can get the power I need or grind because I feel incomplete, but so I can continue playing and have a sense of progression.

My guess is there will still be that "LevelUpPlugin" in data/scripts/plugins that specifically defines the function that determines XP needed to level up. The hard cap itself I bet can be changed as a simple variable in data/config/settings
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