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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Skill Overhaul  (Read 96964 times)

Megas

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2016, 05:54:58 PM »

Industry could let you make ships more cheaply and/or make enhanced ships like XIV for Hegemony.  Imagine if you can integrate one hullmod (of your choice) in every new ship you build, sort of like Safety Override for raiders.

If Hegemony can crank out XIV ships and Luddic Raiders have free Safety Override ships, maybe the player can have his own custom built enhanced ships for his lone star faction if/when bases come in the game.

That seems much like fleet bonuses from Technology, but those would apply to any ship, not just ships that you make.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 06:16:21 PM by Megas »
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Thaago

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2016, 06:02:56 PM »

I'm ambivalent on the officer cap mentioned; at present, it's more or less a cap on the number of vessels which can usefully be brought into combat, at least at higher levels, and if that's still the case after the skill revamp then the skill increasing the cap is pretty much mandatory for anyone who wants to have anything more than a very minimal fleet supporting them in combat.

I hope that part of what makes the 'more officers' skill lest mandatory is officers/combat skills being much less powerful. Vastly reduced range and speed bonuses will go a long way to evening the playing field.

I know no restraint so for industry I'm going to guess nanobots.
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Dri

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2016, 06:17:06 PM »

There is a lot to digest here, but one of the things that I want to immediately comment on is that I believe the removal of the softcap is a not so hot idea. By the time the player would reach the new hardcap, wouldn't they already be at a point where they could go on to "beat" the game? I mean, Starsector is a sandbox game, so why hard limit the postgame?

Just further increase the softcap EXP curve if you feel it neccessary—give endgame players something to play around with (some actually enjoy a spot of relaxed grinding/farming). Again, by the time players reach the hardcap they are already pretty much able to beat the game, no? Let players grind past 40 if they want to/find it fun.
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PCCL

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2016, 06:19:28 PM »

agreed. This is a minor concern for me though since it looks to be trivially moddable
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Megas

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2016, 06:40:19 PM »

I like the hard cap.  It puts a limit to compulsive grinding done by perfectionists who think no such thing as too much power (or do not feel perfect without having everything).  For people who are hardcore and have lots of free time, their level cap may be much higher than someone who is casual or who (may be hardcore but) cannot afford the time to grind characters.  It is nice (and possibly refreshing these days) for a game to say "You played enough! You have enough power!  Beat the game with what you have and play something else or get a life!"

There are games that encourage grinding for as long as possible.  If players are trained to grind a game (for min-max reasons), they may see another game with a soft cap to be ground.

In current Starsector, I do not feel my characters are complete until at least level 60, and I prefer to level up even higher, possibly up to 80+.  But I dislike the grinding required to attain such power.  Before 0.65, grinding past 35+ was tedious.  Then 0.65+ made things easier, and I got spoiled with high power.  (I love high-level Starsector much more than level 1 Starsector; I refuse to play missions because ships are too slow and weak.)

As for progression, I like to have my characters reach max power or level cap relatively quickly, not near the end of the game.  Besides, that tends to be a treadmill, not truly increasing difficulty.  If enemies get stronger, but so do you equally or more, then it is just a treadmill.
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Dri

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2016, 06:48:58 PM »

Well what I'm saying is, Megas, that a vast majority of players will get up to around level 40 and then beat/finish the game using the playstyle/skill set they've chosen. For those that want to continue playing in the sandbox, why limit them?

If you can beat the game around level ~40, then why would anyone feel forced to keep grinding? A softcap grind would simply be for those that actually enjoy it, really.
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DownTheDrain

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2016, 06:51:32 PM »

I like the hard cap.  It puts a limit to compulsive grinding done by perfectionists who think no such thing as too much power (or do not feel perfect without having everything).  For people who are hardcore and have lots of free time, their level cap may be much higher than someone who is casual or who (may be hardcore but) cannot afford the time to grind characters.  It is nice (and possibly refreshing these days) for a game to say "You played enough! You have enough power!  Beat the game with what you have and play something else or get a life!"

I strongly disagree with that sentiment, especially the part about any game telling the player to "play something else or get a life".
Obviously the game shouldn't be balanced around endless grinding, but I see no harm in allowing it in a sandbox game.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 06:55:31 PM by DownTheDrain »
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Cycerin

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2016, 06:54:25 PM »

I think the industry combat style is based on deploying stuff into combat somehow
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Megas

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2016, 06:57:20 PM »

@ Dri:
Because it is a compulsion for some people; I have I seen it first-hand during Diablo 2's heyday.  I have been there, done that, and compulsive grinding is not good.  I remember spending a full day leveling up a character from 93 to 94 (or was it 94 to 95).  I pitied those who tried to level from 98 to 99 to win some level 99 competition.  Encouraging people (who did not want to cheat) to run Baal/Pindleskin/cows/whatever for stupidly rare items (or simply to reach level 95+ for more skills wanted by skill hungry builds) for days, weeks, or months just to compete in the game is stupid.

Sure, people can mod or cheat to remove the grinding to get the power they want (I sometimes do it), but that is not a good thing to encourage.

@ DownTheDrain:
The game may be the sandbox, but your character may not necessarily be a demigod with unlimited potential.  Human is still human, not an immortal god of war.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 07:00:51 PM by Megas »
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2016, 07:06:03 PM »

I'm not sure I follow Alex's logic in motivating the player to use larger fleets. The main reason why people solo'd before was because it was the most effective method of playing the game. You acknowledged this, but the way you fixed the issue was to punish soloing further, not making fleet combat more attractive. This is confusing to me because soloing is already difficult.

Here is what it boils down to in my opinion: A lot of players don't like big fleet combat because since the AI isn't a reliable partner and will often die, players often have a negative net gain post battle. Those precious ships you had previously handed to officers with rare weapons? All gone.

I was expecting a few skills that would help things in that regard, such as a significant increase of repair percentage for disabled allied ships or increased post battle salvage haul per ship deployed. But as it is it seems it's just a punishment for soloers. I wonder if the mysterious industry skills are there to address this.
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DownTheDrain

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2016, 07:09:07 PM »

@ DownTheDrain:
The game may be the sandbox, but your character may not necessarily be a demigod with unlimited potential.  Human is still human, not an immortal god of war.

That's... an extremely odd way of reasoning. I don't even know how to properly respond to that.
Considering my character still needs to take a ship into combat and can't just float through space on his own while melting enemies with mind-beams or some such, I'd argue that he is very much human and not "an immortal god of war".

Not to mention that your argument would eliminate about 98% of all RPGs and possibly the entire genre.
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Megas

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2016, 07:12:19 PM »

Yes, soloing is not that easy, especially if player refuses to reload games.

What made fleet action worth doing in 0.65 was ships being able to stand down and recover 50% (or a little less) CR because they finished the battle quickly.  Now, 0.7+, anything you deploy will not get any CR back unless it is an anti-exploit situation (one side deploys, another side retreats without deployment).  Even with soloing fleets plus commission, profiting from combat was slow.  If I did not reload games, I would take losses, and I would eventually lose my prized rare ships.

The only advantage fleet action has today is powerleveling, but I will probably lose money or supplies doing so.
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Megas

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2016, 07:22:02 PM »

@ DownTheDrain:
The game may be the sandbox, but your character may not necessarily be a demigod with unlimited potential.  Human is still human, not an immortal god of war.

That's... an extremely odd way of reasoning. I don't even know how to properly respond to that.
Considering my character still needs to take a ship into combat and can't just float through space on his own while melting enemies with mind-beams or some such, I'd argue that he is very much human and not "an immortal god of war".

Not to mention that your argument would eliminate about 98% of all RPGs and possibly the entire genre.
My point is your character may not be superhuman enough to have unlimited power potential that is attainable with sufficiently long grinding or training.  (Sorry, you are not the one (Neo)!  You are not Son Goku!)  This would be represented by a hard cap that will be reached late enough in the game.

Admittedly, in Starsector, your character has a superpower; he can respawn like a lich!  He can scuttle his last ship at will and respawn in a brand new ship to replace his broken shuttle or to escape being stranded in an uninhabited system.

As for eliminating so-called RPGs, maybe, at least online ones.  I guess it would hurt those that want grinding to keep their servers populated for whatever gain.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 07:24:06 PM by Megas »
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PCCL

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2016, 07:26:25 PM »

well, a hard cap isn't the only way to do that. While we cannot train up infinitely, we do get a LITTLE better if we keep training. A (sufficiently steep) soft cap works pretty well for that, I think
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DownTheDrain

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2016, 07:30:47 PM »

@ DownTheDrain:
The game may be the sandbox, but your character may not necessarily be a demigod with unlimited potential.  Human is still human, not an immortal god of war.

That's... an extremely odd way of reasoning. I don't even know how to properly respond to that.
Considering my character still needs to take a ship into combat and can't just float through space on his own while melting enemies with mind-beams or some such, I'd argue that he is very much human and not "an immortal god of war".

Not to mention that your argument would eliminate about 98% of all RPGs and possibly the entire genre.
My point is your character may not be superhuman enough to have unlimited power potential that is attainable with sufficiently long grinding or training.  (Sorry, you are not the one (Neo)!  You are not Son Goku!)  This would be represented by a hard cap that will be reached late enough in the game.

Admittedly, in Starsector, your character is special.  He can respawn like a lich!  He can scuttle his last ship at will and respawn in a brand new ship to replace his broken shuttle or to escape being stranding in an uninhabited system.

As for eliminating so-called RPGs, maybe, at least online ones.  I guess it would hurt those that want grinding to keep their servers populated for whatever gain.

I'm still not sure what exactly you're arguing for or what the actual benefit of a hard cap would be.
Surely the player is the one in virtually every single game out there. I mean that's kind of the point of playing, you're the protagonist.
I guess you could argue for a cap for the sake of realism but this isn't really the game for that.

As for "so-called" RPGs, online or other, if players truly enjoy grinding then why deprive them of it?
More importantly, why remove it from Starsector as long as it's not mandatory to succeed?
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