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Author Topic: Skill Overhaul  (Read 65035 times)

Alex

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Skill Overhaul
« on: December 17, 2016, 01:39:04 PM »

Blog post here.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2016, 01:47:05 PM »

Ouch... Level cap, more skills and no aptitude areas giving perks hurts...
Edit: Are combat costs going to be dropped at all or the AI tweaked to deploy less? Because much of what I'm seeing screws over the combat loving player since the AI doesn't have to worry about supply costs or losses. Also, how are officers affected?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 01:53:50 PM by Midnight Kitsune »
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Inventor Raccoon

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2016, 01:57:09 PM »

RIP Megas soloing entire fleets.

Also, here are what I think these skills are, apart from the first Industry skill because what even is that (warning: very large picture)

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« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 02:12:16 PM by InventorRaccoon »
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RickyRio

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2016, 02:01:58 PM »

So considering the limited nature of skill points now, Will there be any way to respec skill points without starting a new character?

It does not (and I would even recommend it not being) have to be cheep, but with the limited nature of choices, the possibility to change one's decisions should be available. While we can hire and fire officers until we get what we want for skills/temperaments I think it would be beneficial to extend any possible player skill re-specialization to officers as well.
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Cinth

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2016, 02:03:13 PM »

I'm seeing screws over the combat loving player

Likely depends on how the combat focused player plays.  I'm a pure combat player and I usually run fleets.  The changes here are likely to help me in the end.  Now if beams could get some lovin', then all the aspects I enjoyed would have received some changes!   ;D
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Psycho Society

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2016, 02:03:21 PM »

This seems like a more elegant and interesting way to handle character progression. Good job Alex!! Always look forward to your blog posts.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2016, 02:08:40 PM »

I see even more issues with early game with this thanks to the fact that the AI deploys as much as possible and doesn't worry about costs or losses. And with the lack of coming industry, this early game is gonna be a total b**** for newbies
Also, is the skill cap modifiable? (I take it it will be in the settings file if it is)
Also +1 for the respec option otherwise it will once again screw newbies over and force certain builds on skills that avoid hull mod unlocks and now hull mod farming will be a thing...
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Stop trying to balance the game around a few minmaxers...
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Tired of having your game crash because of out of date mods? Then click here!
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Get Version Checker today! Now with 90% less hassle! Simply toss it into your mod folder, activate the mod like a normal one and BINGO you will now be informed of any and all updates when you start SS campaign up!
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Cinth

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2016, 02:16:36 PM »

I doubt the early game is going to be any more unforgiving than it already is.  Adjustments will be made and players will learn.
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Phearlock

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2016, 02:22:20 PM »

I like the encouragement for large tactical fleet engagements. There was one thing that there is no mention of though:

The speed boost from leadership seems like it could be very punishing if you are trying to run away from a much larger fleet. This is already one of the nastier aspects of the early-mid game that makes me run frigate & destroyer packs doing combat missions rather than cargo-hauling (essentially forcing a certain playstyle).

Now I don't need any details, but will this make disengaging even harder? Or will there be new ways of evening the odds a bit.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2016, 02:25:34 PM »

Oh hey, another thing: player fleet cap versus those two bonuses: Now even an endgame fleet can get screwed by those scouts that grab you for their death fleet friends... Great...
Oh and let's not forget that the more outnumbered you are, the LESS you can deploy!
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Stop trying to balance the game around a few minmaxers...
Programming is like sex:
One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life.

Tired of having your game crash because of out of date mods? Then click here!
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Get Version Checker today! Now with 90% less hassle! Simply toss it into your mod folder, activate the mod like a normal one and BINGO you will now be informed of any and all updates when you start SS campaign up!
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Nanao-kun

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2016, 02:34:40 PM »

Looks pretty good.
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Phearlock

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2016, 02:44:55 PM »

Would it be an idea to make the leadership bonuses increase per-ship over time (and EW effects decrease per-ship over time)? To a certain limit of course.

It could be a way to make it more possible to fight your way out of being outnumbered by a much larger fleet in the mid-lategame (example, 200 point player fleet vs 300-ish point AI fleet with a battle limit of 400). The initial stages would be very punishing, but if you could keep your ships alive and score some kills, reinforcing ships would not have as great a bonus to their fleet-level skills initially. Hopefully helping a smaller fleet to be able to fight on more even terms if their ships stay alive.

Edit: this of course does assume the fleet deployment mechanics would work at least similarly to what we have now.
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Alex

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2016, 02:49:14 PM »

Edit: Are combat costs going to be dropped at all or the AI tweaked to deploy less?

No and no. It's possible the rewards might go up a tad; we'll see.

Because much of what I'm seeing screws over the combat loving player since the AI doesn't have to worry about supply costs or losses.

I'd argue that making the late-game more difficult makes it more interesting for the "combat-loving" player :) More stuff to figure out how to deal with.

Also, how are officers affected?

Officers start at 4 maximum and you get 2 more per "Officer Management" level (skill under Leadership), if that's what you're asking.


So considering the limited nature of skill points now, Will there be any way to respec skill points without starting a new character?

It does not (and I would even recommend it not being) have to be cheep, but with the limited nature of choices, the possibility to change one's decisions should be available. While we can hire and fire officers until we get what we want for skills/temperaments I think it would be beneficial to extend any possible player skill re-specialization to officers as well.

Probably not. The nature of many skills is such that not having the skill anymore after having had it gets weird. Quick example: "officer management" raises the officer limit. What happens to the extra officers if you were to respec?

I'm sure there is a reasonable answer to that one specifically, but combine it across many skills where it's a potential issue, and it gets too messy to deal with.

On the other hand, hitting the level cap isn't particularly time-consuming, compared to getting to level 50-60+ in the current release.



Also, is the skill cap modifiable? (I take it it will be in the settings file if it is)

Yeah, naturally.

force certain builds on skills that avoid hull mod unlocks

Could you clarify what you mean here? If you mean what I think you mean: as I say in the blog post, if a skill unlocks a hullmod, that hullmod is not weighed into the benefit of the skill if you can get it elsewhere, that is to say the base bonus of the skill (minus the hullmod) will still be strong. It's basically a convenience bonus, something you can do to guarantee early access to the hullmod.

Unless it's a hullmod you can't get elsewhere, that is.


I see even more issues with early game with this thanks to the fact that the AI deploys as much as possible and doesn't worry about costs or losses.

I'm not sure how that's related to the skill revamp.

But, if anything, your power level in the early game will be higher thanks to the gains from the early levels meaning a lot more than they do now. It just won't jump off the chart once you hit 5 and 10 in whatever aptitude.

On a related note, low-level pirates and such are likely not going to have CM or EW.

I doubt the early game is going to be any more unforgiving than it already is.  Adjustments will be made and players will learn.

There's also a bunch of stuff in the works to make it easier.


I like the encouragement for large tactical fleet engagements. There was one thing that there is no mention of though:

The speed boost from leadership seems like it could be very punishing if you are trying to run away from a much larger fleet. This is already one of the nastier aspects of the early-mid game that makes me run frigate & destroyer packs doing combat missions rather than cargo-hauling (essentially forcing a certain playstyle).

Now I don't need any details, but will this make disengaging even harder? Or will there be new ways of evening the odds a bit.

Interesting question, hmm. I mean, if you're trying to run in a Buffalo, you're in trouble no matter what. More flexible ships have options - speed mods, CM-enhancing mods, you picking up CM yourself. If anything, I'd say that you would probably want to invest in the Sensors skill, which will help a lot in avoiding that scenario in the first place.


Oh hey, another thing: player fleet cap versus those two bonuses: Now even an endgame fleet can get screwed by those scouts that grab you for their death fleet friends... Great...
Oh and let's not forget that the more outnumbered you are, the LESS you can deploy!

I think it's a bit premature to draw conclusions about your ability or inability to take on a large enemy fleet. Yeah, it'll be a lot harder to solo one. But it might even turn out to be easier to win late-game battles than it is now, provided you do things in another way; haven't done enough playtesting to say with certainty right now.

(But, yes, an enemy "death fleet" is a *hopefully* a challenge. That's... not a bad thing.)


Would it be an idea to make the leadership bonuses increase per-ship over time (and EW effects decrease per-ship over time)? To a certain limit of course.

I'm not sure I want to go and kneecap the new mechanics right off the bat before even giving them a chance to work :)

If you score some kills, the battle will naturally get easier anyway. Especially if you take down their officers, which, sure, they can deploy more ships from the reserves - but they won't be nearly as effective.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 02:51:06 PM by Alex »
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Cycerin

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2016, 02:54:09 PM »

man that's a lot to sink my teeth into! Really good stuff though, I like it a lot. I'm curious how hard missile specialization is getting hit, and also about all those intriguing new icons.

Plus it's so hard to envision what you mean by new combat playstyle... RTS style building of disposable drone ships or something?
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Alex

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2016, 02:57:47 PM »

man that's a lot to sink my teeth into! Really good stuff though, I like it a lot. I'm curious how hard missile specialization is getting hit, and also about all those intriguing new icons.

Missile spec:
+25% speed/maneuverability
+50% missile/bomb/torpedo/etc hitpoints
+25% missile damage


I feel like I should add, just on a general note - the goal isn't to make soloing impossible. It's just to make it less good than it is now and open up the room for other ways to play, as it feels like things swung too far in that direction with skills being as they were. Of course, making soloing harder also lowers the ceiling for what you can get done solo, but hopefully it'll stay reasonably high. Just not "take on the deathstar and a couple of nearby fleets at the same time" high.

Plus it's so hard to envision what you mean by new combat playstyle... RTS style building of disposable drone ships or something?

Ahh, :-X. I want so badly to talk about it, but no.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 02:59:27 PM by Alex »
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