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Author Topic: built-in ship size hullmods, with range bonuses (again ^^) and other useful info  (Read 3424 times)

Sy

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so the basic idea of this has already been mentioned in both the discord channel and the patch notes thread, and Alex seems to prefer the current implementation:
Quote from: Alex, on discord
regarding the DTC/ITU, the idea is that it's a default choice in most cases, but you can still go for a specialized build that doesn't use it. Baking it into the hull would remove that option. But, yeah, 90% of the time you're going to want to install it.
The part that bothers me about the cost change is: if 90% of builds are going to have it, it should just be baked into the hull and instead there's a hullmod that gives more OP or other benefits in exchange for removing the range bonus. This reduces the clutter of DTC/ITU appearing all the time, and avoids noob traps where new players don't install it because they don't know they're supposed to.
I hear what you're saying. But: one, "hullmods giving more OP" isn't a thing. Two, it it was baked in via a built-in hullmod, that wouldn't actually reduce clutter - and if it was just baked in, that'd be a hidden stat, also not newbie-friendly. My feeling is neither solution is ideal, and this one has the virtue of being simpler.
however, with some small additions, i feel it might still be worth consideration.

like Histidine, i'm suggesting a built-in hullmod be put on every (playable) ship, which provides a 'default bonus' to weapon range based on ship size-class, with numbers similar to the Integrated Targeting Unit hullmod. but rather than making it one hullmod that shows range bonus for all size-classes, i'd use a unique hullmod specific to each size-class that additionally includes (all or some of) the following:
  • default sensor strength and profile stats
  • mention of hullmod OP costs
  • mention of max additional flux capacitors and vents
  • a brief description of the size-class that explains common strengths and weaknesses, and suggested roles in large fleets

my idea here is that these new hullmods could have a number of uses beyond just the range thing, in one easily accessible but unobtrusive package, thereby hopefully making them worth the "clutter".
as an example, one such hullmod could look like this:

Frigate Hull

The smallest class of autonomous ships in the Sector, Frigates usually make up for their lack of firepower and durability by being the fastest ships on the battlefield -- as well as the cheapest to deploy and maintain. This mobility makes them well suited to quickly capturing or reinforcing strategically important positions, performing flanking maneuvers, or roaming in small "wolf packs" to hunt down isolated enemies. Going toe-to-toe with large enemy ships is generally best avoided.
Smugglers, pirates and small-time bounty hunters often take advantage of Frigates' high travel-speed and low sensor profile to avoid detection or ambush vulnerable targets.

Due to their small hull size, installing additional hull features and mods on Frigates requires less ordnance points than on any other ship size, but they are limited to a maximum of 10 additional flux capacitors and vents.

Frigates have a default bonus to ballistic and energy weapon ranges of +10%.

Frigates have a default sensor strength and profile of 1. Any fleet with a very low combined sensor profile can also take advantage of reduced engine interference to boost sensor strength, retaining a combined minimum of 4.



and, again like Histidine (i totally had this idea before reading it in the thread, i swear! :D), i'm suggesting 'inversing' the current range-boosting hullmods, by making them either negate the built-in default bonus or reduce range by a flat percentage (and in the later case, frigates also wouldn't need to have any built-in default bonus at all, starting at a baseline +/-0%). i can see why a hullmod having a negative OP cost could be confusing, although i think it should be fine if it's explained in the description (something about making room for further modifications by getting rid of some targeting arrays and/or weapon kickback dampeners, which requires a reduction in weapon range for safety reasons).
if negative OP cost is absolutely unwanted, these hullmods could simply give bonuses to something that is nice to have on pretty much every ship (for 0 or very low OP cost). a few examples of such bonuses could be flux stats, sensor stats, max CR boost, or a reduction in maintenance/deployment costs.

as i see it, the benefits of doing things this way over how it works currently are
  • cleaner implementation of the weapon range bonuses the game is balanced around, getting rid of the potential trap of seemingly offering choice that actually has one correct/expected answer "90% of the time"
  • showing sensor stats in a more easily accessible/noticeable place than the campaign-layer tooltip, without adding yet more stuff to the "logistical data" stats
  • giving new players some explanation to minor concepts like ship size-based hullmod costs, and providing basic recommendations of how to make best use of a ship size-class
  • clearly marking a ship's size-class. afaik this is not currently mentioned anywhere in-game outside of some names and codex-descriptions, and it's not always obvious. but since size-class itself has a direct impact on gameplay/balance, it can be a deciding factor in choosing between different ships to use/buy


gameplay-wise, this doesn't change much, if anything. so i can understand it might just not be worth spending development time on, even if this would be a slight improvement over how things are currently. but i really think it would be better to have the choice be to add a hullmod to a loadout that would benefit from it, rather than forgo adding a hullmod you use by default. and more importantly, i feel this would be much more newbie-friendly.
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Thaago

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I like this idea very much. I would want the description text available not just on the hullmod description, but also somewhere else, because the information is extremely valuable and I'm not sure a new player is going to hover over a pre-installed hullmod. Perhaps the hull size could also be displayed in the UI of the buy/fleet screens with each ship, and hovering over it gave the same description?
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Toxcity

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If this idea were implemented, it would be better to have the extra range information added to the weapon tooltip.
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Sy

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If this idea were implemented, it would be better to have the extra range information added to the weapon tooltip.
weapon tooltip? you mean every weapon should state the 4 or 5 different ranges in its stats summary?
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Toxcity

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No. I mean that it shows on the tooltip when refitting a ship with a range increase. For example, if destroyers got +10%, the Light Assault Gun would show range as "660 (+60)" on the tooltip when outfitting destroyers.
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Sy

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might not be a bad idea, but then it should probably be done for all ship/hullmod specific weapon stat changes. i think it would just be inconsistent and confusing otherwise, especially for new players who don't already know about the default range bonuses. which means those still need to be properly displayed somewhere else.
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Deshara

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I don't get the point
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Sy

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I don't get the point
which part? ^^

all in all, the point is to 1) remove/change a hullmod that is a no-brainer now, but without screwing with balance and 2) hopefully make choosing ships and good loadouts just a bit easier for new players, and explain some mechanics that can be confusing.
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Deshara

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Actually sat down to read OP, shouldn't forum half-asleep. Sounds like an idea I had for fleet role profiles as a hullmod slot.
Just had a thought tho; if DTC/ITU is considered standard default with an occasional build that doesn't need it, why not make their behavior default with a pair of hullmods that disabled the size range bonus?
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Sy

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goddamnit Desh, i think you're still half asleep. :D
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Techhead

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The simple way (in my mind, code ) to deal with it: Make DTC come installed by default when buying capital ships or cruisers unless you strip them (either with the strip command, or individually).
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