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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 639143 times)

Cik

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #615 on: April 13, 2017, 03:34:40 PM »

it differentiates hightech from low and gives hightech a boost, which they need anyway.

the model is counterintuitive and too simple. >high tech scout frigate >inferior in sensor strength to thousand year old battleship with sensors that qualified as antique 1/3 of the way into it's lifecycle

?????? i'm a sensor geek but take a random man off the street, show him a wolf and then show him an onslaught and which will he pick as the one with better sensors.

this progressive dumbing-down of the game is starting to disturb me honestly. sensors were not too complex before. it wasn't perfect for many reasons, but tying strength directly to hull size? any reasonable person wouldn't understand it, physically it doesn't make sense and it's not good for the game, either. there's no reason an onslaught has to be a good scout ship. there are a dozen reasons i can think of right now that it shouldn't be, for one, it's the best ship in the game and already ridiculously strong.
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cjuicy

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #616 on: April 13, 2017, 03:35:30 PM »

I personally see it as how much the sensor array has to be spread to cover all angles of the fleet. If you have more ships, the sensors can be focused on a smaller area each, allowing them to reach farther.
Kinda like a lamp vs. flashlight debate. The lamp spreads light in more than one direction, but is usually dimmer. Focusing the light into a beam lights a smaller area, but becomes much brighter
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BillyRueben

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #617 on: April 13, 2017, 03:37:16 PM »

I prefer sensor strength to be based on hull size, since so many other pieces of the game are. Also, I'd rather it be hull size rather than how "blue" my ship is.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #618 on: April 13, 2017, 03:38:48 PM »

sensors were not too complex before. it wasn't perfect for many reasons, but tying strength directly to hull size?

Eh, sensors *were* tied to hull size before, in very much the same way as in the new formula. That you were not aware of that is good evidence of it indeed being too complex.
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orost

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #619 on: April 13, 2017, 03:49:43 PM »

Quote
Mechanics-wise, having all ships contribute to either stat linearly is not viable. Either ships don't contribute an individually impactful amount, or the number gets too high on the high end of fleet size.

But why is it a problem that huge fleets would have huge sensor profiles? If it means that I can see an enormous battlefleet across half a system, then... well, why wouldn't I?

I guess my overall point is that whenever I think of stealth in a military situation, the by far most important application for it that comes to mind is a small scouting force keeping an eye on a bigger force that cannot see it. It's the most basic function of a sensor model, something I would definitely want to try and expect to work in a game. But the sensor model in Starsector is specifically designed to make that impossible, by making small fleets exactly as blind as large fleets are visible, which really confuses me.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #620 on: April 13, 2017, 03:55:37 PM »

But why is it a problem that huge fleets would have huge sensor profiles? If it means that I can see an enormous battlefleet across half a system, then... well, why wouldn't I?

What happens then is sensors stop being a consideration *at all* for fleets beyond a certain size, i.e. one large fleet will always see another large fleet at such long range that it may as well be infinite. I think the game plays better when some degree of stealth remains an option even for larger fleets.

I guess my overall point is that whenever I think of stealth in a military situation, the by far most important application for it that comes to mind is a small scouting force keeping an eye on a bigger force that cannot see it. It's the most basic function of a sensor model, something I would definitely want to try and expect to work in a game. But the sensor model in Starsector is specifically designed to make that impossible, by making small fleets exactly as blind as large fleets are visible, which really confuses me.

Again, similar reasons. This symmetry keeps whether you can see something or whether something can see you dynamic - based largely on terrain effects and ability use - rather than being fixed given the fleets involved. Put in a slightly different way, this makes terrain and abilities more meaningful.
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orost

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #621 on: April 13, 2017, 03:59:54 PM »

I'm still kind of skeptical but it does make sense.
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #622 on: April 13, 2017, 04:02:31 PM »

Sensor math: one frigate, two frigates, three frigates, four frigates, many frigates :)
I guess that's what you get for using troll sensors.
Also some part of early game difficulty is that pirates often came out guns blazing out of nowhere, even if it was bigger fleet.

Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #623 on: April 13, 2017, 04:09:01 PM »

I guess that's what you get for using troll sensors.

Niiice :)

Also some part of early game difficulty is that pirates often came out guns blazing out of nowhere, even if it was bigger fleet.

Yep, that's the reason it's a bit higher now.
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #624 on: April 13, 2017, 04:11:12 PM »

I'm still kind of skeptical but it does make sense.
Maybe lore can explain it - maybe the Domain created an efficient form of sensor technology that could be installed on every ship, though never updated it as they progressed because it was as good as they though they could make it.  And then similarly to the Tachyon Lance, the understanding of how it worked was lost with the Collapse.  So ask no questions asked on how it works, just let the autofactory do it's thing.  Though I'd need David's help for that. :)
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Techhead

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #625 on: April 13, 2017, 04:12:52 PM »

Most ships still have equivalent sensor strengths and profiles. Unless one of the ships involved has asymmetric sensor stats, sensor encounters will remain symmetric.

As long as the UI effectively communicates how the system works, I don't really have any problems with it. People are making noise about large schools of frigates, but generally, you're only going to care about the big ships anyway.

And with the exception of modifiers, sensor strength was always tied to hull size. Frigates were 1, destroyers 2, cruisers 3, and capitals 4. Then the whole fleet was all summed up and passed through a funny equation. This ditches the equation and makes it "base plus the five most important ships".

EDIT: Fixes numbers.

EDIT 2: Looks like I'm repeating stuff Alex said a few posts up. Whoops.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 04:16:45 PM by Techhead »
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Wyvern

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #626 on: April 13, 2017, 06:05:11 PM »

I'm still kind of skeptical but it does make sense.
Maybe lore can explain it - maybe the Domain created an efficient form of sensor technology that could be installed on every ship, though never updated it as they progressed because it was as good as they though they could make it.
Or maybe there have been significant improvements in sensor technology, but they're been retrofitted into previous hulls, much like the Onslaught's shield generator.
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Histidine

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #627 on: April 13, 2017, 06:23:36 PM »

My idea for overcomplicating it:
Fleet profile = (profile of 5 highest ships) + sqrt(profile of other ships)

This is identical to the new system for small fleets, while adding diminishing returns for additional ships. So they still matter somewhat (and people don't wonder why they don't) without making the fleet stat grow to excessive levels.
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Dri

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #628 on: April 13, 2017, 06:32:41 PM »

What I want to know is if there are some special weapons or ships that can only be acquired through exploration and/or salvaging! Did you have the time/resources to add something awesome like that?
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PCCL

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #629 on: April 13, 2017, 06:53:43 PM »

pretty sure alex said that REDACTED and REDACTED will be in the next patch, not sure about REDACTED though

edit: also REDACTED, how did I forget that...  :P
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