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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 639258 times)

Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #435 on: March 26, 2017, 09:16:33 AM »

Is there a codex explanation for why the Storm Needler will be the only instance of a family of related weapons where range decreases with size?

Since the range limit for ballistics is (conceptually) due to accuracy/targeting/etc, I'd imagine it's to do with that. Possibly just hard to accurately aim that-size weapon and keep it aimed in the face of constant recoil? Or less-than-stellar targeting, for whatever reason.


Kopesh and Claw, right? any word on what weapons the Claw will have?

Khopesh, Claw, and several REDACTED.

The Claw sports an Ion Cannon.

oh and something else i just thought of: will the Venture get burn 8 now that even battlecruisers do? i know it will become a more dedicated industrial ship, which i really like, but being limited to 7 max burn just from having a single Venture seems like a bad idea for fleets specializing in surveying and/or mining operations far from the core worlds.

Well, it makes sense for battlecruisers conceptually, but not so much for the Venture. With Sustained Burn in the picture, though, I'd expect the importance of burn level to drop a bit. I mean, it'll still matter, but when you get +10 (or more) for long-range trips, that'll take some of the sting out. There are also more tactical options, a possibility for having CR-free emergency burn, etc.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #436 on: March 26, 2017, 09:18:08 AM »

WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY APOGEE????
it kinda needed the combat nerf, but it will now finally become the exploration vessel it was always meant to be! :]
Yeah, now it only has the flux stats of a warship. Or should I say that the warship has the flux stats of an exploration vessel, which doesn't make sense in many ways, along with the loss of the drones...
I would have kept the drones along with cuting some of the flux stats and or giving the large hardpoint to the Aurora. The fact that an exploration vessel has a large while a full blown warship has a medium is freaking nuts. Not to mention that it also has better shields that fully cover the ship

Edit:
oh and something else i just thought of: will the Venture get burn 8 now that even battlecruisers do? i know it will become a more dedicated industrial ship, which i really like, but being limited to 7 max burn just from having a single Venture seems like a bad idea for fleets specializing in surveying and/or mining operations far from the core worlds.
There are also more tactical options, a possibility for having CR-free emergency burn, etc.
Oh gods, NO! PLEASE! I get ganked enough as it is by the damn AI spamming E Burn. I don't need them not losing CR on top of that. Besides, something like E Burn needs to have a resource cost besides fuel
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 09:29:55 AM by Midnight Kitsune »
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #437 on: March 26, 2017, 09:40:38 AM »

hmm. do you think it would help if we chopped up some old Hounds and put their pieces anywhere they seem to fit(ish)?
Hmmmmm... sounds plausible.
*brings out a chainsaw*

Seriously, though, that will get in the way of one of the biggest hint to solve this puzzle - colors and patterns on the pieces.

Or less-than-stellar targeting, for whatever reason.
Budget, obviously.
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Abradolf Lincler

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #438 on: March 26, 2017, 09:50:19 AM »

WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY APOGEE????

It's fiiiiine.

I'm not sure I find to reassuring...
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #439 on: March 26, 2017, 10:04:55 AM »

Oh gods, NO! PLEASE! I get ganked enough as it is by the damn AI spamming E Burn. I don't need them not losing CR on top of that. Besides, something like E Burn needs to have a resource cost besides fuel
Isn't that a level 3 Industry / Safety Procedures skill perk?
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #440 on: March 26, 2017, 10:08:36 AM »

Oh gods, NO! PLEASE! I get ganked enough as it is by the damn AI spamming E Burn. I don't need them not losing CR on top of that. Besides, something like E Burn needs to have a resource cost besides fuel
Isn't that a level 3 Industry / Safety Procedures skill perk?

Correct.

(Also, even if the enemy fleets didn't lose CR from using EB, I doubt that would make much practical difference, but meh.)
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #441 on: March 26, 2017, 10:26:03 AM »

Enemy fleets losing CR from E-burn makes it a little faster to outlast them if I need to resort to stalling.  Also, if there is a fleet I really want to catch (because it has a rare ship I want to capture), I might E-burn it to death.

Generally, enemy losing CR probably would not matter much most of the time.
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Dri

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #442 on: March 26, 2017, 11:46:38 AM »

I don't really like the idea of player fleets and AI fleets following radically different rules. Makes everything feel overly "gamey" and arbitrary. =/
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #443 on: March 26, 2017, 12:23:38 PM »

I don't really like the idea of player fleets and AI fleets following radically different rules. Makes everything feel overly "gamey" and arbitrary. =/

I get what you're saying, but don't agree in this particular case. They play by the same rules regarding EB, and whether their supplies cost them money or not (or even exist) is something of a moot point, since it's not directly visible to the player. The feel of it could be enhanced by tweaks to the EB-usage AI, perhaps. To further support that: consider that EB usually gets singled out here, even though AI fleet CR recovery works the same way regarding supplies.

But, anyway: I see your point, but imo it's "minor" rather than "radical", in terms of same-rule-following. That's what gets blamed, but that's not what the actual issue is. It's not even clear that following the same rules would help with AI EB use - if they were to be using supplies and restocking, that's very much the same situation as now, anyway.

Edit: And it's very likely to lead to other issues. Basically, the idea is "let's assume that other fleet commanders are competent at managing their supplies instead of simulating that directly". Simulating it directly, best-case, will eat more CPU and result in similar behavior to now. Worst-case, they won't be competent at it and there'll be abusable issues.

A visible nod to them using supplies - such as, perhaps, fleets occasionally acting as if they're out of supplies - would be imo all that's necessary to fully "sell" it here.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 12:26:50 PM by Alex »
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PCCL

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #444 on: March 26, 2017, 01:19:06 PM »

that's why I'm concerned with the whole no-sustained-burn-for-AI thing

now THAT is a radically different rule if ever I've seen one
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Dri

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #445 on: March 26, 2017, 01:27:10 PM »

If properly simulating supplies/fuel/crew for AI fleets is off the table then yeah, adding events where the AI at least acts like it has run out of them would be a good compromise.

But I take it the player wouldn't ever be able to force such events, eh? No chasing around another fleet for dozens of in-game days (provided you have plenty of your own supplies, of course) and then having it trigger an out-of-supplies event?

And yeah, no Sustained Burn for AI is a bit out there, but I imagine it'd really futz with the whole chasing down of enemy fleets loop (and even the movement of fleets in general) if everyone was zipping around at such a high burn...
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #446 on: March 26, 2017, 01:29:14 PM »

A visible nod to them using supplies - such as, perhaps, fleets occasionally acting as if they're out of supplies - would be imo all that's necessary to fully "sell" it here.
If by "occasionally acting as if they're out of supplies" you mean stopping every single fleet from spamming E-burn literally all of the time, sure. That's the issue I have with AI E-burn, they just mash it every time it's off cooldown even when it's completely unnecessary, making it very obvious they don't actually use supplies and don't care about losing CR before going into a fight. Two AI fleets that want to get into a fight with each other will both E-burn directly towards each other, which is a ridiculous waste of CR. A fleet that wants to stay close to the player will use E-burn every time it's off cooldown, just to vibrate in place at the edge of the designated safe radius. A player that is totally fine with getting into a fight with an AI fleet doesn't even have to try to bait them into using E-burn and wasting an entire deployment's worth of CR, reducing the combat effectiveness of the entire enemy fleet by a small but noticeable amount. It might even be to the AI's advantage to take away their ability to E-burn because of this. This also means E-burn is useless for smaller fleets trying to escape larger fleets of 1 burn level slower, because a dozen-cruiser AI fleet will spend 250+ supplies every other day just to run down your 3-destroyer fleet and you cannot do the same without running out of CR and going broke.

I would be totally fine with the AI not having access to either E-burn or sustained burn. It's clearly not responsible enough to have high burn speeds.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 02:56:31 PM by ANGRYABOUTELVES »
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #447 on: March 26, 2017, 01:43:00 PM »

that's why I'm concerned with the whole no-sustained-burn-for-AI thing

now THAT is a radically different rule if ever I've seen one

Could you clarify the "that's why"? I'm not sure what you mean - or, at least, I'm not sure how it follows from what I said, if that's what you meant :) Also: did you see my earlier response about SB and AI fleets? Asking because you're talking about it being a "rule", which doesn't seem to fit with that.

Finally, not re: SB specifically: conceptually, not all abilities have to be available to all fleets. Some are skill unlocks, some might be granted through events, etc. I don't think any given ability not being available to all and sundry is any sort of inconsistency - though I can see how it might seem that way *now*, given that in the current release this is the case with all abilities. In 0.8a, it's not.
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PCCL

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #448 on: March 26, 2017, 01:48:47 PM »

bah, sorry about the omission, I meant it follows from dri's post, not yours

 
I don't really like the idea of player fleets and AI fleets following radically different rules. Makes everything feel overly "gamey" and arbitrary. =/

if you're talking about the whole "AI coding is hard and not enough bang for programming buck", yeah, I did. It makes sense as a developer, of course, but I'm still salty about it.


Finally, not re: SB specifically: conceptually, not all abilities have to be available to all fleets. Some are skill unlocks, some might be granted through events, etc. I don't think any given ability not being available to all and sundry is any sort of inconsistency - though I can see how it might seem that way *now*, given that in the current release this is the case with all abilities. In 0.8a, it's not.


sure, but there's a difference between "not available to every fleet" and "not available to any fleet save for the player's". If SB is even available to the occasional long-haul freight fleet or explorer expeditions, that would feel much better (given the player also has a similar skill needed to unlock it or something)

I'll give it a fair chance, of course, but idk, think I'll just end up disabling SB for myself manually come the update.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #449 on: March 26, 2017, 02:05:56 PM »

I would say E-burn isn't a very interesting mechanic right now. It doesn't really change the outcome of chases at all, you just have to spend a bunch of extra supplies. The AI generally always pops E-burn if you do so if your fleet is slightly faster, you catch them/escape, slower and you don't, same as it would be without the mechanic. If the fleets are the same speed, you just burn supplies forever. It would be a lot more interesting if there were some skills that affected E-burn. You could get a faster burn to escape fleets you otherwise couldn't, or maybe a slower burn for some other tradeoff (maybe make it cost less supplies or something) or you could have skills that affect the cool down on the E-burn, just something so that it changes the outcome of a chase from what it would have been if the mechanic didn't exist. That would actually make the mechanic feel interesting. IMO right now it's a pointless waste of supplies. It's also super annoying to get chased across an entire system by a patrol constantly E-burning after you and your only options are to burn all your supplies or take an impossible fight.
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