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Author Topic: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 494292 times)

Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #75 on: December 04, 2016, 05:33:18 PM »

I think the weirdest abstraction so far is the way crew losses interacts with fighters, and the non-linear "the more fighters you lose, the less crew you lose per fighter".

The only way you're going to know about that one is from the blog post/comments. In the game, you'll just lose an appropriate-looking amount of crew - more with more fighters lost, but not over the crew on the carrier.
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Voyager I

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #76 on: December 04, 2016, 05:55:33 PM »


EDIT:  also really excited to see options to compel aggression out of your officers.  For christ's sake guys, it's okay if the PD dings your armor a little bit, just run down the blasted Tarsus.  Making them become reckless at the player's discretion is also a great workaround for all the issues that normally surround it.  You might lose a ship unnecessarily because you told them to go all-in, but it will feel like the consequence of a decision you made rather than just being punished by AI mistakes you have no real control over.

Hopefully!


The quality of work you put out leaves me with faith that the Aggressive AI will be able to differentiate between "It's okay to take some LMG fire to the armor to press the pursuit" and "I'm compelled to keep pushing at 90% flux and get goomba'ed by a single rack of Harpoons".
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #77 on: December 04, 2016, 06:04:53 PM »

And, as you say, if it's not able to, it'll be your own damn fault. But, yes, appreciate the vote of confidence - thank you!
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Voyager I

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #78 on: December 04, 2016, 06:12:40 PM »

And, as you say, if it's not able to, it'll be your own damn fault. But, yes, appreciate the vote of confidence - thank you!

I mean, if I'm trying to tell them it's okay to get the paint scratched and they're hearing "Death before dishonor!" then it's pobably going to be a liability more than a feature and result in a lot of angry new faces in General Discussion, but I think you've earned the benefit of the doubt on AI coding at this point.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #79 on: December 04, 2016, 06:26:23 PM »

From testing so far, it seems most beneficial to use when your forces are stronger than the enemy, though it's not exactly suicidal in an even fight, either. I seem to remember doing some testing with it in an I think 7v7 or 8v8 fight, and the "full assault" side would lose it more often than not, but not by an overwhelming margin. This was a while back, though, so hopefully I'm not misremembering.
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Deshara

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #80 on: December 04, 2016, 06:37:07 PM »

EDIT:  also really excited to see options to compel aggression out of your officers.  For christ's sake guys, it's okay if the PD dings your armor a little bit, just run down the blasted Tarsus.  Making them become reckless at the player's discretion is also a great workaround for all the issues that normally surround it.  You might lose a ship unnecessarily because you told them to go all-in, but it will feel like the consequence of a decision you made rather than just being punished by AI mistakes you have no real control over.

Hopefully!


Thought: You mentioned adding in a new officer type that will act reckless no matter what. Are you gonna be changing any of the old officer types to not go reckless when a full assault order is given, unless they're specifically told to? I'd like to have soooome sliver of control over how all-out fleet goes
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Voyager I

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #81 on: December 04, 2016, 06:42:09 PM »

That seams reasonable.  Aggression is risky, and I can tell you that even as a player I still end up reloading saves due to aggressive bravado.  I was mostly just concerned that my frigates would interpret that as orders to play catch with strike weapons or press suicidal engagements, but those seem like the kind of obvious problems you would think of immediately which is why I didn't even mention them in my first post.

I guess I'm just triggered tonight because PGI announced a new game and they're like the Vietnam War of intractable bad ideas.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #82 on: December 04, 2016, 06:59:52 PM »

Thought: You mentioned adding in a new officer type that will act reckless no matter what. Are you gonna be changing any of the old officer types to not go reckless when a full assault order is given, unless they're specifically told to? I'd like to have soooome sliver of control over how all-out fleet goes

Timid officers won't. Plus you can engage this piecemeal using the "eliminate" assignment.

That seams reasonable.  Aggression is risky, and I can tell you that even as a player I still end up reloading saves due to aggressive bravado.  I was mostly just concerned that my frigates would interpret that as orders to play catch with strike weapons or press suicidal engagements, but those seem like the kind of obvious problems you would think of immediately which is why I didn't even mention them in my first post.

Well, they're not going to die *on purpose* but they're certainly going to press past the point where it might be wise. The point is to not engage this behavior in situations where it'll end badly; the main use case for it is pursuit, though there are other tactical uses too. But if one were to just use that as the default, one should expect losses.
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torbes

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #83 on: December 04, 2016, 07:09:49 PM »

Well, they're not going to die *on purpose* but they're certainly going to press past the point where it might be wise. The point is to not engage this behavior in situations where it'll end badly; the main use case for it is pursuit, though there are other tactical uses too. But if one were to just use that as the default, one should expect losses.

Now I desperately want a mod the plays the old "Leroy Jenkins" yell when an officer decides on reckless behavior.  ;D

Come on Combat Chatter !
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #84 on: December 05, 2016, 01:12:57 PM »

So: I get what you're saying, and generally agree with it on a more abstract level. But details, man.

Ok I'll take that. I haven't been able to play for a couple months so I'm not up to date on details. My discussion point about different types of games is a simplification, but it serves as a thought framework for analyzing certain features. Please note, just because starsector has 2d graphics and non-newtonian mechanics doesn't mean it isn't a simulation-- it's a simulation with 2d non-newtonian motion as starting premises from which everything else should follow.

For example all the pre/post combat dialogue box options and what their effects are on CR etc aren't so intuitive, or at least I can never keep them straight. Maybe I'm just a dilettante player and I shouldn't use myself as a metric for what is intuitive, but at that point it feels like I'm playing one of those complicated euro style boardgames where you have to keep a rules card by your side at all times to avoid paralysis.
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Deshara

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #85 on: December 05, 2016, 01:16:55 PM »

Thought: You mentioned adding in a new officer type that will act reckless no matter what. Are you gonna be changing any of the old officer types to not go reckless when a full assault order is given, unless they're specifically told to? I'd like to have soooome sliver of control over how all-out fleet goes

Timid officers won't. Plus you can engage this piecemeal using the "eliminate" assignment.

No chance of having cautious officers maybe only go up to stable or aggressive and not full reckless? I hate the thought of my light support frigates throwing themselves into the fire just because I want my battleships to go in for the steamroll
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #86 on: December 05, 2016, 01:34:28 PM »

SS 2.0! Thanks Alex :)

(Oh, hey, look who's around! :))


Please note, just because starsector has 2d graphics and non-newtonian mechanics doesn't mean it isn't a simulation

Yeah, totally agree. My point is that in part because of these, it's more abstracted. Most games are a simulation, right? Set up the rules, and then watch it go.

(In retrospect, the distinction you're making seems possibly more about real-time vs turn-based rather than simulation vs not.)


For example all the pre/post combat dialogue box options and what their effects are on CR etc aren't so intuitive, or at least I can never keep them straight.

Yeah, that's fair - although iirc as of the last release, those options have been drastically simplified.


No chance of having cautious officers maybe only go up to stable or aggressive and not full reckless? I hate the thought of my light support frigates throwing themselves into the fire just because I want my battleships to go in for the steamroll

In that situation, you'd probably want to order them to retreat first. Or put reckless officers on the battleships. Neither option offers fine-grained control, but then again that's not exactly the goal here.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #87 on: December 05, 2016, 01:55:52 PM »

Does full assault lock you in like full retreat does? If not then couldn't you just cancel the order
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #88 on: December 05, 2016, 01:57:48 PM »

It does not. Cancelling it costs/requires a command point, though turning it on does not.
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Morgan Rue

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #89 on: December 05, 2016, 02:07:09 PM »

Can we get a command to kill a target as fast as possible without caring about efficiency? Will "Eliminate" serve this purpose? I've had some situations where a larger ships will refuse to kill a smaller ship inefficiently by using missiles, even if it is one of the only/few threats remaining. Perhaps this is only an issue with Sabots.
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