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Author Topic: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 495646 times)

Linnis

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #120 on: December 08, 2016, 03:02:46 PM »

Then why not just add an line or extra transparent layer to the flux bar or something similar that says "ready to vent" and vent is on something like 3 second cool down.

Otherwise maybe just have the whole ui flicker off and then off then on when venting, to visualize flux systems turning off and on.
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Dri

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #121 on: December 08, 2016, 04:02:26 PM »

Is the Devastator Cannon indeed a fragmentation damage type weapon? Do you have any special intents for fragmentation damage going forward or just thought that a large mount frag damage weapon was a niche that needed filling?
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #122 on: December 08, 2016, 06:48:20 PM »

I wonder if the range penalty for unstable injector maybe should scale a bit with size class? When I think about it, it seems like it will be a nerf to frigates that want to use energy weapons and still go fast. It shouldn't be a no-brainer but flat 25% seems more punishing for frigates than it needs to be.
I am concerned about this for the Wolf.  Wolf without engine upgrade is too slow against its competitors, but if its range with pulse laser/heavy blaster gets gutted to 450-ish with an engine upgrade (that I should use Safety Override to try to compete with Lasher), then there may be no point to use it.  Its attack range will be so short that I might as well use Lasher instead.  (If I use all-beams instead, then Wolf gets hard-countered by anything with shields, which is nearly everything past early-game pirates).  Lasher can outshoot small stuff in close range and win the flux war.  The Wolf cannot with flux-hungry laser/blaster or beams only.

Other high-tech ships may be fine without Unstable Injector.  Tempest is probably fast enough, and the likes of Hyperion and Scarab have powerful systems.
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TaLaR

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #123 on: December 08, 2016, 08:14:18 PM »

+1 to Megas here. Frigates, especially ones with low base speed, benefited the most from accessible speed hullmods (since they scale with reverse size).

This seriously limits usability of slower frigates (around 100 speed), unless pigeonholing them into Safety Override builds is intended.
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Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #124 on: December 08, 2016, 09:57:54 PM »

Frigates won't be able to kite as much, but imo thats not a bad thing. Its kind of silly that the player frigates are automatically 40+ speed faster than the AI (because its a mandatory hullmod the AI doesn't use very much). I do agree that the Wolf is undergunned when it comes to cracking shields, but its mobility system is rather powerful on defense.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #125 on: December 09, 2016, 06:29:12 AM »

The thing about Wolf:  It is not much faster than Lasher.  It is slower than Lasher, and possibly other frigates, that are equipped with an engine hullmod if Wolf is not similarly equipped.  Because it relies solely on Pulse Laser or a blaster to crack shields, and those weapons are flux hungry and do less damage to shields than kinetics, it will lose the flux war unless it can kite.  As for small mounts, it needs at least two, preferably all three, for PD.

Its phase skimmer is its only consolation ever since it lost its Omni shield.  The change to front shield has hurt its defenses.  Skimmer will not help much if it is forced to fight within range of enemy ballistics, because ballistics (if favoring kinetics) almost always wins.

Wolf is fairly expensive to deploy, and they do not clean up pursuit as efficiently as a Lasher or superior high-tech frigates.

The easiest solution, without changing weapon balance or ship systems, is to change Wolf's missile hardpoints to composites.  That way, it can fight kinetics with kinetics, much like Medusa can, so that it is not dead meat as soon as a ballistic bruiser comes in range.  EDIT:  Or change shield efficiency from 0.8 to 0.6, so its shield can take a beating from machine gun or autocannon fire?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 06:52:37 AM by Megas »
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Chronosfear

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #126 on: December 09, 2016, 09:43:45 AM »

The thing about Wolf:  It is not much faster than Lasher.  It is slower than Lasher, and possibly other frigates, that are equipped with an engine hullmod if Wolf is not similarly equipped.  Because it relies solely on Pulse Laser or a blaster to crack shields, and those weapons are flux hungry and do less damage to shields than kinetics, it will lose the flux war unless it can kite.  As for small mounts, it needs at least two, preferably all three, for PD.

Its phase skimmer is its only consolation ever since it lost its Omni shield.  The change to front shield has hurt its defenses.  Skimmer will not help much if it is forced to fight within range of enemy ballistics, because ballistics (if favoring kinetics) almost always wins.

Wolf is fairly expensive to deploy, and they do not clean up pursuit as efficiently as a Lasher or superior high-tech frigates.

The easiest solution, without changing weapon balance or ship systems, is to change Wolf's missile hardpoints to composites.  That way, it can fight kinetics with kinetics, much like Medusa can, so that it is not dead meat as soon as a ballistic bruiser comes in range.  EDIT:  Or change shield efficiency from 0.8 to 0.6, so its shield can take a beating from machine gun or autocannon fire?

I like the idea of changing the missile hardpoint to composite .. use ballistic early in game and later on, when you want to use the wolf as a more defensive support ship with its missiles back in place.
or the 2 small energy ( left & right , not center ) could be changed to ?hybrid? [Ballistic/Energy]

And btw : t I think we are getting of topic  :-X
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #127 on: December 09, 2016, 10:07:44 AM »

It would not be a good idea to change Wolf's small energy to hybrid.  At that point, Vulcan becomes a no-brainer to install for PD.  Same OP cost as PD laser, but much more effective for anti-missile.  That or install some Light Needlers to kite with.  I probably would use Advanced Optics boosted Phase Lance, Light Needler, and two Vulcans.

Most energy weapons that do not have special properties like EMP are simply inferior to ballistics.  With vent delay killing vent spam, blasters may not be so good anymore, because they are usually at their best when they can be vent spammed.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #128 on: December 09, 2016, 10:40:05 AM »

Then why not just add an line or extra transparent layer to the flux bar or something similar that says "ready to vent" and vent is on something like 3 second cool down.

Otherwise maybe just have the whole ui flicker off and then off then on when venting, to visualize flux systems turning off and on.

Again, more UI elements and more complicated. Not saying you couldn't make that work (aside from the whole UI flickering, that seems like a lot of overkill), but the "pause weapon reload for 2 seconds" also works and is nice and simple.

Taking a step back: what's the goal of making the change you're suggesting vs the one I made? That's probably good to establish.


Is the Devastator Cannon indeed a fragmentation damage type weapon? Do you have any special intents for fragmentation damage going forward or just thought that a large mount frag damage weapon was a niche that needed filling?

It's HE.


Regarding the Wolf:
What exactly should we expect out of it? It's still more than capable of beating an AI-controlled Lasher in the player's hands, without skills involved on either side, even when the Lasher is armed with kinetics. For me, that's a much easier and faster fight than the reverse; even with UI the Lasher is only 10 units faster than the Wolf, which isn't enough to make up for the phase skimmer. It's also a decent support ship when equipped with beams and missiles.

If anything, this seems like it might be back to working more-as-intended. The Wolf can dictate the engagement vs a Lasher, but requires more finessing - whether in managing flux or in attacking at the right time, when more than two ships are involved - to actually come out on top. The UI change should help high-tech ships by making their speed advantage mean more.

(Side note: Swarmers seem great on an early-game Wolf. Flux-free damage, accurate vs frigates, keep the pressure on while out of range, good enough ammo to handle several enemy frigates.)
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Cik

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #129 on: December 09, 2016, 11:35:01 AM »

wolf is fine, it just has the problem that every other frigate also does wherein flanking with it is marginally impossible because of the turn speed of heavier ships.

frigates can't realistically position themselves to the rear of the enemy, due to inability to deal with the firepower on the way, and they can't realistically punch through the front of something due to range/longevity problems.

i don't know if that's really a bad thing though, and that of course excludes phase/teleport frigates which are still pretty absurd
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #130 on: December 09, 2016, 03:25:45 PM »

Regarding the Wolf:
What exactly should we expect out of it?
Blue death!  Maybe Tempest-lite.  More seriously, something that can compete with Lasher much like Medusa competes with Enforcer, and Paragon with Onslaught.  (For cruisers, current Aurora is a joke ship while Dominator is top-tier.)  Since it costs as much CR to deploy as Tempest, I expect Wolf to outperform Lasher a bit, but it only shines when a group of them can surround a target and tear it apart.  Mass Wolf pack used to be feasible for the player during 0.65, but the 25 ship limit and possibly addition of officers (for the enemy) made that sub-optimal for the player.  AI can still bring huge numbers to bear against the player, but player cannot do that to the extent possible in 0.65.

When I first played Wolf in 0.53, before CR and peak performance, I would use the starter (graviton and tac laser) beam Wolf, and kite until beams slowly overload then kill ships.  That is not very effective in today's world of timers.  More recent versions, like during 0.65, my Wolf would use pulse laser or heavy blaster, slowly chip shields with hard flux until ship is forced to lower shield.  If I stray too close to the enemy ship, and it has LMGs or autocannons, it would shoot and hit my shield for hard flux faster than I can do to the enemy.  If the enemy has assault guns or chaingun, it is not so bad.

For missiles, I use the starter Harpoons until I get Salamanders (from loot or pirates' black market).

At endgame, I use frigates (aside from Hyperion) as cheap pursuit/clean-up option.  Lasher has the best blend of low cost and high firepower.  Tempest, Scarab, and phase ships are more useful if the enemy is too fast or too numerous.  (If enemy is still capable of significant resistance, better to auto-resolve for the no-risk option.)
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ChaseBears

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #131 on: December 09, 2016, 04:01:51 PM »

love the patch notes!   :)

a little concerned at the removal of carrier rally though. i know about the fighter changes and all...  i just like how carrier rally points create organic objectives in combat, as opposed to the artificial objectives of the beacons.

I am curious @Alex if any inspiration has been taken from other recent work in the genre, like SPAZ 2 or Wayward Terran Frontier.
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Dri

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #132 on: December 09, 2016, 04:14:25 PM »

Devastator Cannon is HE, huh? Well geez, we've got 3 large mount ballistics all sporting HE damage now—Hellbore, Hephaestus Assault and now this! Wasn't the consensus saying the Hephaestus was kinda underpowered and could use some help?

Do the shots fired by the Devastator have an AoE effect, is it still a burst fire weapon?

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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #133 on: December 09, 2016, 05:16:14 PM »

HAG is just a bit overpriced compared to Hellbore.  Cheaper OP cost is usually the reason why (I) to choose Hellbore over HAG.  Hellbore is burst damage, and happens to be vent spam friendly, the latter of which may be abolished.  The main thing going for HAG is rapid-fire if your other weapons are slow-firing, like HVD.

If anything, I think Hellbore may be undervalued (although I sure enjoy how cheap it is - lets me equip more stuff).  Probably should cost at least as much as Mark IX.

Heavy ballistics have three kinetics too, but then again, it does not matter - Mjolnir is the one all-powerful heavy ballistic to rule them all.

EDIT:  If Hellbore is meant to be the super-heavy version of Light and (new) Heavy Mortar, maybe its range could be downgraded to 800, since the other mortars have less range than more expensive assault weapons?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 05:19:11 PM by Megas »
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PCCL

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Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #134 on: December 09, 2016, 05:31:33 PM »

seconding what megas said about the wolf, I think

when you see a medusa, you don't think of it on equal terms as say an enforcer or a hammerhead; when you see a paragon, you DEFINITELY don't think of it on equal terms as say an onslaught or a conquest. Now, the Aurora is in a bit of a tough spot, but even now I think it's more challenging than an eagle or a dominator.

The wolf, however, for me is almost equivalent to a lasher in combat considerations...

Now, of course, that could be working as intended, but it is a bit of a jarring departure
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