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Author Topic: Cartography  (Read 67501 times)

borgrel

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2016, 03:08:24 AM »

I'm a bit iffy about the menus too.

Since Key modifers are already a big thing as part of the game how about this for the menu system:
1. Right-click for menu
2. Left click for default action
3. Shift click for other likely action
4. Control click for special action
5. Alt click available for player customization (or mod customization)

If right click brings up a menu (without any of the current delay that will get aggravating rather quickly)
Left click is move to
And shift click is info

This addresses all the concerns mentioned in the blog with fewer clicks for average cases i believe?
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Gothars

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2016, 04:12:00 AM »

The map UI looks fascinating and beautiful. I almost want to play it on a giant touchscreen, so I can, well, touch it and feel like a real space ship navigator :)

Map and the normal action screen are strictly exclusive, aren't they? I'd love to have the map open on a second monitor.

Alex, you probably can't talk about the "age of constellations" mechanic without spoiling it, can you?
My guess would be that it determines what kind of things you'll encounter in those regions. Maybe old constellations contain things like Domain survey fleet wreckages and ruins of big colonies, or even pre-Domain alien ruins and artifacts. While younger constellations might have more commercial wreckage and smaller but only recently abandoned ruins.
But we don't know what "old" and "young" relates to, so maybe "old" is everything pre-Domain.


Mh, can't wait to find out :)





« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 04:20:04 AM by Gothars »
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Kaucukovnik

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2016, 05:18:49 AM »

1. Right-click for menu
2. Left click for default action
Okay, I guess.

Quote
3. Shift click for other likely action
4. Control click for special action
5. Alt click available for player customization (or mod customization)
Now that's a mess. It may be very efficient once you learn it, but there is no way to intuitively tell what function key is going to initiate which action. Add a new major feature to the game and half your keyboard shortcuts will be either obsolete or make no sense.
For example Nexerelin adds planetary invasions. Now wouldn't the best default action for hostile planets be "invade"? Therefore you are either stuck with sub-optimal controls, or you have to move the vanilla default to an alternative and pretty much shuffle the rest along with it.

Menu with default choice right under the cursor sounds way more elegant.


And I bet the constellation age is more on the galactic scale, like what types of planets different kinds of stars usually have. That could in turn affect Domain presence, which would be based on conditions for human colonization in the past.
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HELMUT

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2016, 05:53:26 AM »

Question: How are you going to stop hidden game overs of someone running out of fuel and falling into an empty system?

I guess the "Planetary Survey" part will give your fleet some rudimentary ways to extract some fuel from the planets/derelicts in the system. Also, now that we have a fuel range indicator, you would have to try really hard to screw up.

Otherwise, that's a very cool update, the sector is going to be huge now. Even with sustained burn, travelling to another constellation will take a while. I'm a bit worried the game will feel quite empty though.

I also have a few questions. Now that the sector is huge, will the number of events increase as well? (Bounties, investigations, etc.) Are we going to receive those informations from the whole sector, or just the constellation we're in? Or will it mainly depends on the accessible Comm Relays?  If the amount of events is roughly the same as it currently is, then it's going to feel very, very lonely for such a big place. However, if the events are proportionally increased to the size of the whole sector, the player is going to be overwhelmed by the amount of stuff suddenly happening, most of it being irrelevant due to the distance.

Same thing about the player's reputation, will your buccaneering exploits be immediately renowned in the entire sector? Or just in the local area? Logically, i'd say the "accident" you caused in "Zeta Yomi C" would probably never reach the Hegemony high command's ears, being buried under the paper piles of the Chicomoztocian's bureaucracy and all that. Unless you did stuffs, like, borrowed a whole Onslaught from the local garrison or something.

Lot of unknowns in my eyes, but i feel this is going to be quite different than a really big game of Nexerelin. Anyway, i'm eager to try this when it'll release.
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borgrel

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2016, 06:24:46 AM »

but there is no way to intuitively tell what function key is going to initiate which action.

the same way u learn about everything in any game
Code
Hint:
Holding shift with left click allows taking only a portion of a stack in the market.
Holding shift with left click will instantly open the planetary info screen on the map

Code
Menu:
Open
Navigate          (shift)
Information        (ctrl)
Fuel used tooltip   (Alt)
Order Invassion
   Waypoint  (shift+ctrl)
(not that order invassion would get a shortcut, just the first example to come to mind)
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Jonlissla

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2016, 08:12:23 AM »

Blog posts are the best posts. I'm really looking forward to the update, seems like this one is going to be massive.

The procedural systems are not, generally speaking, "controlled" by established factions. They mostly contain ruins to explore, dangers to brave, and rewards to reap. The civilized portion of the Sector has been largely reduced to the core worlds.

Does this mean that trading and missions will be largely be in the centre of the map, the core worlds, or will there be enough stuff generated outside of it?
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Nick XR

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2016, 10:31:43 AM »

but there is no way to intuitively tell what function key is going to initiate which action.

the same way u learn about everything in any game
Code
Hint:
Holding shift with left click allows taking only a portion of a stack in the market.
Holding shift with left click will instantly open the planetary info screen on the map

Code
Menu:
Open
Navigate          (shift)
Information        (ctrl)
Fuel used tooltip   (Alt)
Order Invassion
   Waypoint  (shift+ctrl)
(not that order invassion would get a shortcut, just the first example to come to mind)

CTRL+ALT+SHIFT+N can be find fleet by name!
CTRL+SHIFT+N can be find ship by name!!

/s

Am I playing Starsector or coding in IntelliJ here?  Not even Distant Worlds needed anything that complex.  Or maybe it could all be configurable, or in a config file, so we can have it how we like it?

Alex

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2016, 10:46:47 AM »

Question: How are you going to stop hidden game overs of someone running out of fuel and falling into an empty system?

Not sure yet. There are a few options, from "let them learn from painful experience" to "give more fuel for scuttling ships" to "distress calls" to "opportunists showing up offering to sell you fuel(looking at you, Mael-Num)" to, well, other things.

I'm a bit iffy about the menus too.
Spoiler
Since Key modifers are already a big thing as part of the game how about this for the menu system:
1. Right-click for menu
2. Left click for default action
3. Shift click for other likely action
4. Control click for special action
5. Alt click available for player customization (or mod customization)

If right click brings up a menu (without any of the current delay that will get aggravating rather quickly)
Left click is move to
And shift click is info
[close]
This addresses all the concerns mentioned in the blog with fewer clicks for average cases i believe?

Right-click is used for dragging, although that's not insurmountable (e.g.: the combat map, which uses it to drag and to give orders). But there's really nothing that makes putting the menu on right-click necessary to your suggestion, though, is it? Basically, you're saying "add control and shift click as shortcuts for some of the options"; moving the menu to right-click seems tangential to that. Which, I mean, it's not bad, but also doesn't seem necessary.


The map UI looks fascinating and beautiful. I almost want to play it on a giant touchscreen, so I can, well, touch it and feel like a real space ship navigator :)

Ha :D Thank you!

Map and the normal action screen are strictly exclusive, aren't they? I'd love to have the map open on a second monitor.

Yeah, afraid so. Especially since the non-current-locations (which you can now view the map of!) run at a lower frame rate, meaning the movement of planets etc on their map looks jerky.


Alex, you probably can't talk about the "age of constellations" mechanic without spoiling it, can you?
My guess would be that it determines what kind of things you'll encounter in those regions. Maybe old constellations contain things like Domain survey fleet wreckages and ruins of big colonies, or even pre-Domain alien ruins and artifacts. While younger constellations might have more commercial wreckage and smaller but only recently abandoned ruins.
But we don't know what "old" and "young" relates to, so maybe "old" is everything pre-Domain.

Actually, it's not super meaningful right now - the age is in a "galactic" sense, i.e. a young constellation is more likely to have blue stars, be inside a nebula, have more lava worlds, ring systems, etc, and more stuff overall. Older constellations are more likely to have fewer objects, dimmer stars, and habitable worlds. But since outposts (unfortunately) won't be a thing for this release, it doesn't mean too much.

I'm not sure "picking the Sector age" will remain as a new game option going forward - might get replaced with something stronger, perhaps like what you're talking about. More ruins from one age vs another, etc. Naturally, the concept of constellation age would remain in any case, since it's a core part of how they're generated.


Otherwise, that's a very cool update, the sector is going to be huge now. Even with sustained burn, travelling to another constellation will take a while. I'm a bit worried the game will feel quite empty though.

Yeah, keeping an eye on that myself. Might end up downscaling it a bit if it's needed for gameplay, but we'll see. Traveling to a nearby constellation really isn't too time-consuming, but going all the way to the outskirts does take a while. But that's also nice, in a way. You really get a feeling of scale, so as long as there's a good reason to go there, and perhaps a few distractions along the way...


Now that the sector is huge, will the number of events increase as well? (Bounties, investigations, etc.)

Since the stuff around the core is mostly ruins to be explored, they're not going to factor into events very much. Bounties, perhaps - i.e. a few more places for the ne'er-do-wells to hide - though hopefully not on the very outskirts.

Same thing about the player's reputation, will your buccaneering exploits be immediately renowned in the entire sector? Or just in the local area? Logically, i'd say the "accident" you caused in "Zeta Yomi C" would probably never reach the Hegemony high command's ears, being buried under the paper piles of the Chicomoztocian's bureaucracy and all that. Unless you did stuffs, like, borrowed a whole Onslaught from the local garrison or something.

Haven't quite decided on how that'll work yet. I mean, yeah, if you have a "dispute" with another salvager way out there, it seems like that shouldn't instantly tank your reputation everywhere.


Does this mean that trading and missions will be largely be in the centre of the map, the core worlds, or will there be enough stuff generated outside of it?

Trading (such as it is at the moment), yeah, since it involves population centers. Missions, not necessarily. In fact, the way I'm thinking about it right now, missions would be something that would nudge you towards exploration.
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borgrel

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2016, 11:02:17 AM »

But there's really nothing that makes putting the menu on right-click necessary to your suggestion, though, is it? Basically, you're saying "add control and shift click as shortcuts for some of the options"; moving the menu to right-click seems tangential to that.

True enough.
..... now that i think about it.

Brilliant as always.
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Cycerin

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2016, 11:38:55 AM »

I'm hyped.
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Deshara

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2016, 11:51:22 AM »

The map UI looks fascinating and beautiful. I almost want to play it on a giant touchscreen, so I can, well, touch it and feel like a real space ship navigator :)

WHOA NAVIGATION & TACTICAL SISTER APP FOR SMARTPHONE & TABLET SO YOU CAN PLAY ON YOUR PC WITHOUT EVER NEEDING TO SWITCH OUT OF 'NORMAL' MODE
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Mini S

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2016, 12:41:26 PM »

In the images of the new map there is Sysem(W) instead of System(W).
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Alex

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2016, 12:43:33 PM »

In the images of the new map there is Sysem(W) instead of System(W).

Oh, wow, how'd I miss that?? Thank you, fixed.
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ZeroEffort89

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2016, 01:32:41 PM »

Looks great! This game is shaping up to become epic!
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Dri

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Re: Cartography
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2016, 01:36:04 PM »

Always been a fan of video game maps so this was a nice blog post. Too bad you probably aren't gonna get real fancy with it and have animated nebulae and twinkling stars and such! As others have mentioned, it looks like you've put a lot of thought and planning into this, so not much to say or ask. Well, I will say that I think Starsector is a combat-focused game, so how are you gonna work in some potential for major battles when the player is out on the fringe and faaaar away from the major factions? Are those distant systems gonna be almost totally devoid of any major threats (drones not being a threat)?

Anyways, still no ETA or even a solid hint as to when the patch might finally go live...brutal! 8)
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