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Author Topic: Shields - how to overwhelm them?  (Read 15507 times)

Kaucukovnik

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Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« on: November 20, 2016, 01:55:25 AM »

In a pinch the AI is very good at soaking every kind of damage the most efficient way, and it always seems to have that bit of flux breathing space left to flicker its shield on for every single hit of my intended armor and hull killers.
Then I back off to the edge of my weapon range, and the AI suddenly turns its shield off, taking several massive hits before turning it on again. This especially happens in 1v1 simulations, which tends to make them kinda useless.
I particularly like reactions to asteroids. "CRASH - Oh an asteroid, shields on! Path clear, shields off....CRACK - Goddammit, another asteroid, shields on..."
On the other hand, I love how AI ships protect each other by throwing their shielded selves in the line of fire for a moment. Sometimes a tiny frigate sacrifices itself in vain, but most of the time it works and it gives the fleet operations so much more life.

To the point: dedicated anti-armor and especially anti-hull weapons pale next to shield killers. If a ship is already taking hull damage, it is doomed most of the time anyway. Armor and hull are finite resources, if you are consistently able to nibble at enemy armor and they aren't capable of that, you are winning. Dedicated armor-destructors may make this faster, but also less reliable. And if you are just scratching their armor, chances are that weaker anti-shield weaponry will make those scratches even less likely. And if you are already destroying them, do you really need that happening faster?
Missiles are completely hopeless, as they face PDs in addition to shields, and surrounding hostile ships can help your target with that as well. Bombers can deal some serious damage if they happen to hit an unshielded side, and that is entirely up to them right now.

The best way seem to be sustained fire to spread damage evenly over time, so that the target simply has to take your payload exactly as you composed it without picking what to block with shields and what is better soaked by armor. Burst fire ballistic weapons are okay too, as they are able to clear the last bits of shielding for themselves.

I do like the fact that the AI can use the mechanics well, but it renders a minority of weapons superior and far easier to use regardless of circumstances. "I'll just point my tachyon lance(s) at it until it explodes."
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Grievous69

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2016, 02:14:32 AM »

Just having one tactial laser on your ship firing at the AI will keep their shields up while you can lower your flux and then give it another go. Or you know, just attacking ships weaker than you so you don't have to worry about losing the flux war.

While it is true that kinetics are superior in 1v1 scenarios, most of the time you'll be fighting in a fleet setting, where there are other ships supporting you and flanking enemies. And to answer your question, ''And if you are already destroying them, do you really need that happening faster?'' If you kill them fast enough, their reinforcements won't have time to respond back. On the other hand, if you're just slowly wailing at them, eventually you'll get surrounded. And let's not forget the ships' CR timers, time is money my friend
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TaLaR

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2016, 04:01:41 AM »

In the end you want to kill enemies as fast as possible to conserve CR.
Pure kinetics may overwhelm shield faster, but you won't do much during their vent with just that.
Or AI will just armor tank at above 75% flux for quite a while.
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DownTheDrain

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2016, 06:39:54 AM »

Missiles are completely hopeless, as they face PDs in addition to shields, and surrounding hostile ships can help your target with that as well.

Err... ok?

Missiles are how I probably make the majority of my kills and so does the AI against me.
I'd argue that they are especially useful to finish off targets if you do focus mostly on kinetic guns.
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borgrel

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2016, 06:51:55 AM »

as a firm lover of high tech ships:

there are several weapons that u dont have to worry about enemy shield with .... AM blasters, Phase lance, Tachyon lance.

i use a few kinetics to build flux ... needlers, hypervelocity drivers something with low flux cost and few enough that flux wont rise while u pit away

once the hard flux is high enough and the AI is beginning to fiddle shields on-off-on-off ..... blast with ur big weapon they will either raise shields overload and take damage, or not raise shields and take damage
repeat.

(with 2 phase lances u can normally punch through a 0flux shield on a frigate, with a tachlance u can normally punch through a destroyer shield without any foreplay tooo)

there are a few you tube vids showing a player use ?9? am blasters on an aurora to 1-hit-KO cruisers.
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Megas

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2016, 07:32:08 PM »

When time is not on your side (e.g., kill 100 ships with your one in fifteen minutes or less, kill about a dozen fleeing ships before they escape), kinetics alone is not fast enough.  For ballistics ships that cannot mount Mjolnir on everything, sure, favor kinetics is a good idea, but mixing one HE for damage quickens overall killing speed.

As for missiles, those that do not regenerate are generally a waste of OP in endurance fights that feature your lone ship against few or several dozen enemy ships.  They are more useful in fleet vs. fleet when fights end in a few minutes.

Note that kinetics tend to have less DPS than energy and HE counterparts of similar OP cost.

Dual flak, despite fragmentation damage, will murder fighters, thinly armored frigates, and any ship with big chunks of armor blown off.  Dual flak is one of the best weapons in the game, serving as best PD in the game and excellent finisher.

Mjolnir is the best all-purpose weapon in the game, with no major weaknesses.  It puts all other assault weapons to shame.

As for killing shields, AI does not defend against burst damage very well.  Note that AM blaster has worse stats than IR Pulse Laser on paper, and costs more OP, but it outperforms IR pulse laser because AI defends against burst damage rather poorly.  Maxing both Ordnance Expert (which you should for the OP discount alone) and Target Analysis (for extra damage to shields) makes overloading AI noticeably easier.  It is like a hidden perk you will not see on your skill screen.
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Serenitis

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2016, 01:44:14 PM »

As for killing shields, AI does not defend against burst damage very well. 

Burst damage is the best at making things dead. And missiles are the best at burst damage.
Run up the other guy's flux with gunfire, then apply missile directly to the face. Either he takes the hit on his shield and overloads, or takes it on the armour and has a brand new hole installed.
The bigger the target the more leeway he has for mitigating this due to flux capacity and dissipation, but it still works the same.

TL;DR
Spoiler
[close]


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DatonKallandor

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2016, 02:24:47 PM »

Burst damage is the best at making things dead. And missiles are the best at burst damage.
Run up the other guy's flux with gunfire, then apply missile directly to the face. Either he takes the hit on his shield and overloads, or takes it on the armour and has a brand new hole installed.

He'll chose overload - and now he's totally exposed.....wait you just used up your burst damage to expose him. And he'll un-fizzle but your missiles won't come back.
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Serenitis

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2016, 04:58:35 AM »

He'll chose overload - and now he's totally exposed.....wait you just used up your burst damage to expose him. And he'll un-fizzle but your missiles won't come back.

The question was how to best overload shields, and the answer is burst damage. And missiles are the best at burst damage. There is even a missile specifically designed to do exactly this.
There was no question about what happens afterwards.

Spoiler
Also, missiles do "come back" if you want them to. (And they should.)
[close]
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Megas

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2016, 06:06:21 AM »

Quote
There is even a missile specifically designed to do exactly this.
If you mean kinetics, the AI tends to lower shields and eat the damage on armor or hull.  If you want to overload shields with HE missiles, that means Reapers or stacked Pilums, maybe MIRVs too, with max Missile Specialization (for +50% missile damage).  Anything less probably requires the entire fleet unloading their racks at one target.  That target will die, then no more or not enough missiles left to do it again.

I think "come back" means ammo regeneration, not homing missile looping back for another chance of impact.
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Cik

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2016, 06:22:05 AM »

Burst damage is the best at making things dead. And missiles are the best at burst damage.
Run up the other guy's flux with gunfire, then apply missile directly to the face. Either he takes the hit on his shield and overloads, or takes it on the armour and has a brand new hole installed.

He'll chose overload - and now he's totally exposed.....wait you just used up your burst damage to expose him. And he'll un-fizzle but your missiles won't come back.

and then you unload your high explosive cannons right into his face?

i mean you have high explosive cannons right? for killing things?

????
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Serenitis

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2016, 05:34:11 AM »

If you mean kinetics, the AI tends to lower shields and eat the damage on armor or hull.
Yes, Sabot. Just because it's kinetic doesn't mean it can't put holes in things. Despite being designed as anti-shield to such an extent that the AI will drop shields to face them, they can and will punch through virtually any armour due to the sheer concentrated damage. (Especially if fired in a volley so multiple missiles hit the same place.)

Quote
I think "come back" means ammo regeneration, not homing missile looping back for another chance of impact.
I know sweetie. I know... ;)
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Megas

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2016, 06:11:27 AM »

The thing about sabot (and possibly other kinetics) is if player wants them to overload shields so that the enemy ship is stunned for about twelve seconds, that is unlikely to happen.  On the other hand, if player wants to overload a ship with missiles, the best bet is a Reaper with max Missile Specialization, because AI sees HE damage and will block with shield at all costs, to the point of overload, and half damage Reaper with +50% damage is still 3000 damage.  Kinetic missiles are useful for forcing the AI to lower shields or, in case of Sabot, anti-hull (or even anti-armor against flimsy high-tech ships).  I only use Sabots as lower shields option for a few ships, namely Sunder armed with plasma cannon or triple blasters and 0 OP Sabots.  I usually use Sabots as a finisher that ignores enemy PD.  The disadvantage is the two-stage process that delays arming - it cannot take advantage of brief openings like Harpoons can.
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King Alfonzo

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2016, 05:46:40 PM »

One COULD script the Sabot so it only does insane kinetic damage to shields. I don't think it'd be that difficult either - Blackrock Shardguns does the reverse, with more damage being dealt if there isn't a shield in the way. That would ensure that it'd only really be good for making a ship overload.

TJJ

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Re: Shields - how to overwhelm them?
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2016, 08:08:08 AM »

On a related thought; Missiles that deal energy damage ???

I'm sure there are mods with them, but is there a reason (balance? theme?) that they don't exist in vanilla?
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