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News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: This is just too much.  (Read 32043 times)

Nick XR

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Re: This is just too much.
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2016, 12:13:52 PM »

I really think Alex is doing the right thing here, let's list some of the less obvious ones:


  • By not taking on additional programmers (spending $$$) Alex is getting more programming hours per dollar spent, which give a longer runway for completion (inherent management and change control issues caused by more than one person)
  • The alpha releases are of exceptional quality.  When was the last time you played an EA game that was as polished with the features that were delivered?  Many of the "complete" games on Steam that I play aren't at this quality bar. 
  • You can only splash once.  Don't go onto steam in EA with anything but an amazing product.  Look at steam spy and their analysis, you only get one splash on steam and it's when your game is first listed.  Alex is being smart by not marketing or going onto Steam yet.
  • Mod support if phenomenal; It's not some bolted on after thought. The reason this game appears to some to be carried by the mod community is because Alex has invested so much time allowing mods to exist.

All the other stuff aside, I'd argue that anyone getting more than an hour of gameplay per dollar spent is getting a pretty good deal.  By that measure alone SS is a huge success for most of us.

RickyRio

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Re: This is just too much.
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2016, 02:12:06 PM »

semi long time semi lurker posting:

RANT RANT RANT UPDATES TAKE FOREVER

-Proceeds to check the site/forum every day for updates/Alex posts-

its like a drug... (More news soon please ;D)

One of my favorite games in quite a long time.
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Kyuss11

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Re: This is just too much.
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2016, 08:18:25 PM »

I think what the original poster meant to say was.....

I can't wait for this awesome game to get more awesome.We are starving for more content"Thank You modders for you are just as awesome" but we all know we could die at any moment and it would be horrible to die before this game is fully released.
We definitely want a polished game and understand that it takes awhile to create code from ground up but couldn't Christmas come earlier this year? Ok fine but maybe a teaser on trading and station building?
Well I just wanted to say Alex your doing a great job and I hope all is well in your life and Thank You for giving me the hours of enjoyment I have experienced already."Thank You modders for you are just as awesome"
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Movementcat

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Re: This is just too much.
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2016, 10:16:58 AM »

Like you see on my previous Topics im one of the most Patient People in the World.

And i really would like to see this Game finished but even when not i got already my Money worth thanks for the Fun hours :-)
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TJJ

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Re: This is just too much.
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2016, 02:56:36 AM »

  • By not taking on additional programmers (spending $$$) Alex is getting more programming hours per dollar spent, which give a longer runway for completion (inherent management and change control issues caused by more than one person)

From my experience, this is a fallacy. Teams operate more efficiently than individuals, because:
- humans have a finite working set, they cannot consider everything, all the time.
- designs are fluid, and humans are fallible. If you make a design error in task A, but don't notice it until you've completed A and moved onto B, having a second programmer start B earlier results in less wasted effort.
- splitting work necessitates modular design leading to more durable code.
- the tools for efficient collaborative working necessitate rigourous development practices; version control, commenting, documentation, etc
- just as not all people are alike, nor is code. Leveraging team members' specialist knowledge saves learning effort.

"Many hands make light work"
"The whole is greater than the sum of its parts"
Etc etc
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 05:11:13 AM by TJJ »
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Cik

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Re: This is just too much.
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2016, 03:03:38 AM »

if you start it together maybe, but it's common wisdom in software that adding more people to the job does not produce a linear increase in delivery speed, in fact it often goes backwards because the people who were working on it have to slow down their own work to explain the inner workings of the complicated beast to the newbies, and the newbies constant misunderstandings and mistakes have to be fixed.

i mean, if you're raking leaves more rakes = more speed, but if you're trying to produce an atom bomb quadrupling the size of the team responsible for it isn't going to produce the same linear curve of increased productivity
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David

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Re: This is just too much.
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2016, 08:56:36 AM »


From my experience, this is a fallacy. Teams operate more efficiently than individuals,

... Given sufficient initial (and ongoing) working capital to support a team, provided management structure & ability exists, and provided a project which is (pre-)structured to best leverage a team of specialized individuals.

I think this is all fascinating and worthwhile stuff, and I've got direct experience with how it goes right and wrong over the past four years. But it's simply not applicable to Starsector now, or how Starsector developed from an off-time hobby project to a full-time operation for Alex.

So, let's say a budget of 600k-2mil is required as a minimum to fund a team of 4-6 over a couple years. Where's the money come from? Maybe a super successful Kickstarter at the beginning ... except Kickstarter only exploded for gaming in February 2012 with Doublefine's efforts, leveraging an existing studio's brand/reputation. No one knew who Alex was at the start. Maybe if he'd pitched a publisher, but what publisher would fund a hardcore 2D space tactics game from an unknown - in Java? Minecraft had not "officially released" when Starsector began production. Where else can you get capital - Indiefund or something? Alex isn't a name in indie circles, and it didn't exist then. Lottery?

Even if building a team was desirable (and it can be a huge trap), the working capital isn't there and was never going to appear. So there are worthy arguments to be made about effectiveness of management practice and project organization, but those come after simply having the money to start with.

This is indie game development!
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Az the Squishy

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Re: This is just too much.
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2016, 10:23:07 AM »

Indie Game Development in a nut-shell:

Going to the Yukon gold-rush and hitting it off, hitting it well, hitting it poorly, or hitting rock bottom. All variable from the tools, location you choose, the people you choose, the people you might know; The time you choose to go and the time you get there.

This doesn't do justice to the subject at hand, but, that's a way of thinking about it.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 10:27:06 AM by Azmond »
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heskey30

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Re: This is just too much.
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2016, 11:32:24 AM »

In my experience a team of two is the most effective in terms of hours put in to quality code produced. Working with another person can be a source of motivation, and when working with something complex like a game, often one person can be overwhelmed and just overlook a simple solution because they can't think of everything when a short conversation with another good programmer who is familiar with the project would bring it up as a matter of course. But with more than two, especially on a tightly connected game like this, you often get situations where one person is waiting on another to finish a system, or people stepping on each others toes and causing bugs because they don't know each others code, or merge conflicts.

But there's another major reason not to hire more programmers that nobody has brought up yet - often they want to have a say in the game. If two different visions are fighting over the project, and this can happen even if the programmers leave every meeting in total agreement, it just makes the game more messy. That's why so many indie games with one programmer or really small teams feel so authentic and special.

Anyway, come on guys, you know this isn't vaporware. The game has been chugging along at a remarkably steady pace for a long time, there is absolutely no reason to panic now. Especially since Alex seems to be extra optimistic about the progress.
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Dri

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Re: This is just too much.
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2016, 01:07:45 PM »

All fears could be dispelled with a...CHANGELOG! Write up what has been done thus far and share it with the emaciated masses (us!) so we can see what wonderous content has been wrought over these many long months. C'mon, it is certainly time...

It'd have the added bonus of reinvigorating this message board and getting some fun debates a'going!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 01:13:57 PM by Dri »
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Cik

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Re: This is just too much.
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2016, 01:33:14 PM »

yes we need more details about how fighters are going to be much improved

please
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Kaucukovnik

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Re: This is just too much.
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2016, 03:04:25 PM »

Nowadays everyone seems to be rushing to make huge campaigns before a single line of code has been written and nothing but promo art has been produced. And often even devs who wouldn't have to resort to kickstarter simply go there to get some free money in advance. Freshly formed studios with no publisher insist on their first game being of AAA+ quality with no compromises...

Crowdfunding and attention of large audience are finicky forces. Completely unrelated projects can funnel hungry players towards you, superficial similarities with notable failures may very well bury you. Accidentally roll out next to a smash hit or heavily advertised title and your splash becomes a tiny "plop".

Keep the schedule as it is, so that modders have the patience to update their creations. Building on top of a moving target sucks, guess why Linux is still not really desktop-ready? :) How can you move ahead if you can barely keep the pace?

Obviously this is no Duke Nukem Forever. "When it's done, it's done" sounds very reasonable here. It would be nice to see the current total development time in the FAQ or somewhere, to better assess the speed of progress, but a curious person can find that out easily with acceptable accuracy.
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Seth

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Re: This is just too much.
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2016, 11:21:24 PM »

Got this game recently, still getting into it and it seems like having quite a lot of content. I dunno, for me it feels like finished product already and I have little idea of what else can be added here, new player can get lost here pretty easily. Installed good batch of mods, and now content feels absolutely infinite...

On one point I still have to agree with Bane, game has NO PR whatsoever, seriously, I stumbled on it in some reddit necro post dating few years back without any clarity of what Starsector is. Word should be sent out in some way, maybe adding game to libraries on big modding related sites, posting blogs on major gaming sites or something. It's truly amazing little gem that's hard to find, a lot of people are missing on fun playing SS, and Alex is obviously missing on lots of new potential customers.
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tuz

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Re: This is just too much.
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2016, 02:31:06 AM »

I actually made a spreadsheet with the release dates of each update. This is the longest time between updates to date.
As of today, its been 262 days since the last patch. The previous record was 118 days.
Number of days since the last major update is 293 days. The previous record was 239 days.
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Solinarius

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Re: This is just too much.
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2016, 12:03:10 AM »

I waited 5 years for Streets of Rage Remake 5.0, the best beat-em-up of all time. Patience is the price of mind-blowing excellence. Hell, there weren't even any alpha or beta releases for that, just blog posts for 8 years. The pace of Starsector is more than fine, in my opinion.
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