Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14 15

Author Topic: Orbital Stations in Combat  (Read 96321 times)

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12159
    • View Profile
Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #165 on: September 28, 2016, 10:46:36 AM »

Both Onslaught and Paragon can solo the simulator without hull damage.  Onslaught does it mainly with a flak screen and outranging nearly anything that threatens it and outgunning those it cannot kite, and the occasional burn drive to escape.  Paragon is easier to use, but Onslaught is the better ship because it kills faster and is more efficient.  Onslaught's primary weakness - getting flanked - is removed by turtling in the corner (and it has the power and defenses to kill anything that tries to attack it), but Onslaught (with max skills) is so powerful it may not need to resort to such cheese.

I am aware of fans for other ships (or fighting game characters or pokemon or other game avatars).  Still does not make sub-par choices any stronger.  Strong characters with character attract fans and munchkins alike, making them very popular.  Weaken the strong character too much, and the munchkins leave, and if it weakened too much, fans will lament, and may play other stronger characters just to not lose too much to competing munchkins or the AI.
Logged

woodsmoke

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 81
    • View Profile
Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #166 on: September 28, 2016, 11:26:28 AM »

There are times I honestly wonder if we're even playing the same game.

...which isn't meant as any sort of attack; I'm fairly sure I'll never understand how you think or the appeal of playing the way you do, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. Just different strokes.

At any rate, I rather like the idea of the Paragon-as-pseudo-station, being as much about battlefield control as direct offense. Though I don't know if that would really fit with the more direct approach Alex seems to favor.
Logged
The more I learn, the less I know.

CrashToDesktop

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3876
  • Quartermaster
    • View Profile
Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #167 on: September 28, 2016, 11:40:32 AM »

@woodsmoke
Megas lives in his own little world with Starsector, if that helps you understand him. :P

But yea,. the Paragon as a mini-station would be rather fitting.
Logged
Quote from: Trylobot
I am officially an epoch.
Quote from: Thaago
Note: please sacrifice your goats responsibly, look up the proper pronunciation of Alex's name. We wouldn't want some other project receiving mystic power.

AgroFrizzy

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 43
    • View Profile
Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #168 on: September 28, 2016, 11:59:33 AM »

Both Onslaught and Paragon can solo the simulator without hull damage.  Onslaught does it mainly with a flak screen and outranging nearly anything that threatens it and outgunning those it cannot kite, and the occasional burn drive to escape.  Paragon is easier to use, but Onslaught is the better ship because it kills faster and is more efficient.  Onslaught's primary weakness - getting flanked - is removed by turtling in the corner (and it has the power and defenses to kill anything that tries to attack it), but Onslaught (with max skills) is so powerful it may not need to resort to such cheese.

At times like this, I wish there was a multiplayer super-melee thing for StarSector so that we could simply pit one against the other. The simulator isn't really an effectual way to do this. I'm sure you could easily kill a paragon in it with your onslaught, and me kill an onslaught easily with my paragon. I think the paragon is easy to use, yes, but I believe it's also difficult to master. Just watch the stupid things that the AI does when it's controlling it. It's especially annoying when it constantly drops its shield, even when it has very little to no flux and it's situated to drop flux even with a shield up. Only the AI benefits from accelerated shields so much on the paragon, yeesh. In addition to flux management, there's an entirely new game mechanic with the fortress mode or whatever it's called. I'll turn that on for a very quick moment, change active systems, and unleash the appropriate hell depending on the situation (are their shields up or down, what's their flux level at, what weapons I can afford to use at my flux level, etc). Sometimes it goes on and off again solely to absorb the timing of a particularly damning weapon. Your max performance is much higher with micromanaging than with playing it simply. Isn't there less to micromanage with the onslaught? There is dropping and raising your shield smartly and boosting, but... it seems more like pointing the appropriate direction and letting your weapons more or less go full throttle. Sorry if I'm oversimplifying it. I do play the paragon a lot more.

I think the closest we could do to melee testing is see who can take out more onslaughts with the paragon, and more paragons with the onslaught (where the character is optimally built and the ship is optimally decked out - I wouldn't be taking the tachyon lance). I know I've taken at least two onslaughts - among other ships with them - with just a paragon in a normal fight, but I don't know what the limit would be. 3 or 4 probably.
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 24123
    • View Profile
Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #169 on: September 28, 2016, 12:00:21 PM »

Onslaught's primary weakness - getting flanked - is removed by turtling in the corner

Out of curiosity, when is the last time you've done this successfully? IIRC the current release has some AI changes that are meant to prevent that from being effective. I could be mistaken and it could have been added after the release, but I'm fairly sure it's actually in the current release.
Logged

Cik

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 607
    • View Profile
Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #170 on: September 28, 2016, 02:16:25 PM »

even flanking the onslaught doesn't really work that well. burn drive means that it can disengage through the enemy (lel) and it has respectable firepower on almost every arc.

it's actually fairly maneuverable now, which means that it has the nose authority to destroy anything within about 30 degrees of either side of it's nose.

it only really takes one TPC + it's forward turrets to atomize anything in the game tbh.
Logged

Gothars

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4403
  • Eschewing obfuscatory verbosity.
    • View Profile
Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #171 on: September 28, 2016, 03:05:51 PM »

Onslaught's primary weakness - getting flanked - is removed by turtling in the corner

Out of curiosity, when is the last time you've done this successfully? IIRC the current release has some AI changes that are meant to prevent that from being effective. I could be mistaken and it could have been added after the release, but I'm fairly sure it's actually in the current release.

Tried it a bit, the AI seems to keep away from me whem I'm im a corner. Burn-drive ships tend to rush forward and die when provoked, though.

What's funny is that neither me (in an Onslaught) nor the enemy fleet ( three cruiser, hand full of destroyers and frigates) seem to lose any CR time, leading potentially to an ifinite standoff.
Logged
The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.

HELMUT

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
    • View Profile
Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #172 on: September 28, 2016, 03:09:35 PM »

Onslaught's primary weakness - getting flanked - is removed by turtling in the corner

Out of curiosity, when is the last time you've done this successfully? IIRC the current release has some AI changes that are meant to prevent that from being effective. I could be mistaken and it could have been added after the release, but I'm fairly sure it's actually in the current release.

Can't talk for Megas, but i did it recently, and the AI indeed have some strange aversion for the corner of the map. Trying to go solo in the middle of the map would have every single frigates glued to your rear, frying your engines with EMP. But only a frigate or two would attempt to do it so closely to the corner, it's quite a cheesy tactic.

Spoiler
[close]

If your question was more about successfully flanking an enemy Onslaught, i'll say yes, i do it every single times unless it's a brawling contest. Yes, the Onslaught will be careful about it, yes its allies will cover its rear, but it's still the best tactic against a front shielded ship and exploiting it always works.

That's why i personally consider the Paragon a superior battleship. Either as a flagship or an AI wingman, it doesn't have any blatant weaknesses to exploit (asides from you know, being completely overwhelmed from all sides, but that's a common weakness among all ships).
 
Edit : Ninja'ed by Gothar. Although there was some CR loss for me, which is how i got most of the enemies frigates btw.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 03:11:51 PM by HELMUT »
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 24123
    • View Profile
Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #173 on: September 28, 2016, 03:13:26 PM »

Tried it a bit, the AI seems to keep away from me whem I'm im a corner. Burn-drive ships tend to rush forward and die when provoked, though.

Ah yes, that reminds me - there's a bug regarding that and burn drive that I fixed a couple of months ago.

What's funny is that neither me (in an Onslaught) nor the enemy fleet ( three cruiser, hand full of destroyers and frigates) seem to lose any CR time, leading potentially to an ifinite standoff.

Yeah, makes sense. Seems alright to me, though, since it's in the player's hands to end at any time.


If your question was more about successfully flanking an enemy Onslaught, i'll say yes, i do it every single times unless it's a brawling contest. Yes, the Onslaught will be careful about it, yes its allies will cover its rear, but it's still the best tactic against a front shielded ship and exploiting it always works.

My main concern here is whether "camp in corner with Onslaught" is still a viable tactic. Aside from the issue where burn-drive ships will still rush into range sometimes, it shouldn't be.

I mean, the AI is staying away from you, which naturally keeps you safer, but it also means you (theoretically) can't win the fight. VS if it kept trying to swarm you while you're in a corner, but only has a 90 degree arc from which to attack, leading to it losing.
Logged

Linnis

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1009
    • View Profile
Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #174 on: September 28, 2016, 03:17:59 PM »

Onslaught's primary weakness - getting flanked - is removed by turtling in the corner

Out of curiosity, when is the last time you've done this successfully? IIRC the current release has some AI changes that are meant to prevent that from being effective. I could be mistaken and it could have been added after the release, but I'm fairly sure it's actually in the current release.

Yup, seems like the ai will wait to circle you untill they rush in together... Except sometimes they get shot at a little then decide they have no choice but to fight. Other times they decide to wait inside your firing range
Logged

HELMUT

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
    • View Profile
Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #175 on: September 28, 2016, 03:41:58 PM »

I mean, the AI is staying away from you, which naturally keeps you safer, but it also means you (theoretically) can't win the fight. VS if it kept trying to swarm you while you're in a corner, but only has a 90 degree arc from which to attack, leading to it losing.

It does stay away from the player. However, i did my attempt with a maxed out Onslaught so i could burn drive in, kill one or two ships, then back off to the safety of the corner before being completely surrounded.

I tried it at level 0 too, you can still try to burn drive in to catch one ship, but you'll also be punished much harshly, and there's no hull regen this time. I didn't bothered trying to finish a lvl 0 simulator battle, because it felt like i was just waiting the enemy crew to die of old age by watching their CR going down rather than actually fighting. I'm sure it's feasible, but it would require spending a lot of time and sanity for it.
Logged

Gothars

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4403
  • Eschewing obfuscatory verbosity.
    • View Profile
Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #176 on: September 28, 2016, 03:51:12 PM »


Yeah, makes sense. Seems alright to me, though, since it's in the player's hands to end at any time.

If you have infinite time you can maneuver and wait for the besieging AI ships to make a positional mistake. Which they more likely than not do, eventually.

It's nothing I would ever want to try to exploit, but when the campaign situation forces you to, it could get tedious.


e/ What HELMUT said.
Logged
The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12159
    • View Profile
Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #177 on: September 28, 2016, 05:05:11 PM »

@ Alex:  I do not remember if I tried it in 0.7.2.  I could try a game a little later to confirm.  Back in 0.7.1, AI with Burn Drive could force themselves into a corner, but they seem to do it by accident... which works well when the AI is an Onslaught and the camper is a cruiser.  Still, even if enemy could come to the corner since 0.7.2, it may still be a good idea for an Onslaught to camp at the corner because ships cannot fly past the wall like fighters to flank Onslaught where there are fewer guns, unless they can now.  Better to have about four to six ships to swarm your Onslaught instead of twelve or more.

Even hugging the wall provides some relief.  If Onslaught (or Paragon for that matter) is hugging a wall, but not a corner, AI sometimes tries to approach to attack or flank, but it is better than being completely in the open because Onslaught does not need to worry about three or so fast frigates trying to maneuver toward its six.  Just hugging the wall partially stops big Wolf and Tempest swarm from surrounding and overwhelming Onslaught or even Paragon.  (Yes, Paragon can lose flux war then be in as much trouble as Onslaught.)


* * *

@  AgroFrizzy:  Paragon is easier to use because it has strong 360 shields, can fire a bunch of guns at any direction, and if you get overwhelmed and/or need your alpha strikers (such as autopulse) to recharge, you can take a time out with fortress shield.  It is simple enough that even the AI does well with it.  In short, Paragon is easier because it is easier to defend against damage.  Onslaught is harder to use because of weaker shields and mostly forward-facing firepower.  However, Onslaught can mount lots of flak - more than enough to stop any missile/torpedo barrage and fighter swarms - and there is no such thing as too much PD when the simulator or worse throws nearly everything at you.  Also, both dual flak and Vulcans are DPS monsters.  Targets with thin or no armor get finished off quickly.  Onslaught has TPCs and superior ballistics to outrange everything except another Onslaught or Conquest (or Paragon's TLs), and it can outgun anything else that cannot flank it.  If you do not want to stay at a corner, and want to fight in the open, but fear frigates more than missiles, replacing two dual flak with HMG work wonders.  Frigates will die.  However, your Onslaught will become vulnerable to missile strikes at the rear.  There is no substitute to dual flak for missile defense and anti-fighter.  Basically, Onslaughts defense against things that flank it is to burn drive away, preferably to a wall to prevent the enemy from flanking more, to buy time if rear PD is insufficient.  If Onslaught has max Evasive Maneuvers, almost nothing can shut down engines.  Even then, if player has Damage Control 10 and Automated Repair Unit, everything repairs quickly.

In a rating from from 1 to 5, my ratings of capitals' offense and defense:
* Onslaught, offense=5, defense=4
* Paragon, offense=3, defense=5
* Conquest, offense=4+, defense=1
* Odyssey, offense=2, defense=2
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12159
    • View Profile
Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #178 on: September 28, 2016, 07:34:42 PM »

@ Alex:  Tried the simulator again for 0.7.2.  Turns out it is harder for one primary reason - they kite!  They do not rush in en masse with guns blazing like in 0.7.1 or earlier.  Instead, it seems like either they have cautious officers' AI or they put the big Avoid order on my ship, and I have to chase the majority of my targets.  It could also be that more small ships are sent to escort bigger ships to add more avoidance.  They also seem aware of my weapon ranges and hover at the edge of them.  The greatest threat to soloing fleets with a battleship is CR decay, even with Hardened Subsystems!  My ship was not shot at very much, but they do not need to.  They can wait out the clock as more reinforcements come.

Turns out Onslaught seems to have more difficulty because the enemy hovers further away from my guns (seems long-range weapons are more of a liability here, but Onslaught has those builtin long-range TPCs) and I need to spend more time chasing them down.  Onslaught could still solo the simulator, but it takes more time.  Even with Hardened Subsystems, I finished the simulator with only 47% CR left.

Paragon with short-ranged weapons has an easier time because the AI does not seem to kite as far away as for Onslaught, and does not need to move as much.  I had more CR left (over 70%) when I finished the simulator.

Because I am forced to chase ships, I need to take more risks and expose my ship to damage more.  I think removal of hull regeneration combined with more cautious AI (and other stat downgrades) will do much to prevent an overpowered battleship soloing too many ships.

Paragon is bigger suited to fight this updated AI than Onslaught.  Pure offense, defense, and shot range is not as important anymore.  Being able to force and decide engagements quickly with a balance of stats to minimize time lost is more important.
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 24123
    • View Profile
Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #179 on: September 28, 2016, 07:52:34 PM »

Thank you for giving it a go! This sounds promising, then, especially with some improvements to the AI handling this in the dev build already. One more piece of the puzzle towards encouraging multiple-ship deployments (hopefully) without being too hamfisted about it.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14 15