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Author Topic: Orbital Stations in Combat  (Read 96368 times)

Schwartz

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #135 on: September 25, 2016, 10:58:44 PM »

Paragon doesn't need anymore perks over, say, Odyssey or Conquest. Personally, I wouldn't touch it at all.
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Gothars

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #136 on: September 26, 2016, 12:07:25 AM »

it has no way of forcing engagements in the first place.

Another way to change that would be a reversed mobility feature that forces enemies into the Paragon's range. That could for example be a in-built tractor beam, or a weapon that teleports the enemy towards you when you hit.
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TaLaR

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #137 on: September 26, 2016, 12:28:19 AM »

Well, giving Paragon 75-100% range boost instead of standard capital 50% would make it much more attractive. Range boosted Paragon would be nice long range sniper support.

But I agree, that Conquest and Odyssey are in far greater need of help. Onslaught completely dominates battlefield, Paragon is already almost usable (but it's role is essentially passive roadblock, boring and easy to ignore most of the time), Conquest and Odyssey are nowhere near the same level.

P.S.  Paragon with a built-in weapon that is effectively classic Tachyon Lance (or something outrageous like Templars' Joyese Fractal Cannon or Neutrino's Phased Array Cannon) instead of two large energy weapons on the hardpoints may be fun too.  Admittedly, the long range beams would probably be more useful on the large turrets instead of hardpoints.

That may be even better than flat range boost. Hardpoints take long time to turn to target, and it seems we are getting to zoom out further. So sniping will constitute a valid, counter-able tactics, instead of god beams from nowhere that arrive the second you drop shields. Giving these built-in weapons some pre-fire delay + easily identifiable sound would also help.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 12:30:49 AM by TaLaR »
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Grievous69

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #138 on: September 26, 2016, 12:40:15 AM »

Conquest and Odyssey are nowhere near the same level.

As they shouldn't be since they're battlecruisers not battleships (although they need something to make them worth using over other capitals). And since we mentioned the underpowered Odyssey now:

Also have half a mind to give the Odyssey the new plasma jets system, but not entirely decided on that.
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TaLaR

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #139 on: September 26, 2016, 01:12:39 AM »

As they shouldn't be since they're battlecruisers not battleships (although they need something to make them worth using over other capitals).

But they can't stay slow AND weak AND expensive as they are now either...

Also have half a mind to give the Odyssey the new plasma jets system, but not entirely decided on that.

Another problem with Odyssey is that it's extremely awkward. It has a very narrow angle that allows to fire all 3 large guns at same target. Keeping enemy at exactly that angle takes a lot of attention, leaving less for defensive maneuvering. And Plasma jets are not going going to solve that. They might even exacerbate the problem, since they make mobility relatively more important.
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Grievous69

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #140 on: September 26, 2016, 01:27:17 AM »

But they can't stay slow AND weak AND expensive as they are now either...

I know, that's why I said they need something. Maybe increasing their burn level will help a bit but I still don't think that's quite enough.


Another problem with Odyssey is that it's extremely awkward. It has a very narrow angle that allows to fire all 3 large guns at same target. Keeping enemy at exactly that angle takes a lot of attention, leaving less for defensive maneuvering. And Plasma jets are not going going to solve that. They might even exacerbate the problem, since they make mobility relatively more important.

I totally agree on this, it's like piloting a mega-Centurion. Althought Plasma jets won't solve the problem, they will help the ship overall. Since it lasts for just 3 seconds, you're just gonna use it to quickly get in or out of combat. It won't change much regarding the 3 energies sweet spot.
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Schwartz

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #141 on: September 26, 2016, 02:08:16 AM »

IMO Odyssey and Conquest should at least hold their own. Battlecruiser - battleship - whatever. Look at the deployment cost. Conquest 40. Odyssey 45. Paragon 50. Onslaught 40. They cost roughly the same and should bring roughly the same 'power' to the table.

I'm not saying they're bad. You can gear them both to be quite effective. But the skill and gear ceiling for these two is different. Conquest could do with a bit more 'beef' in the shield and armour department. Odyssey.. I'm not sure what it could use. The flight deck may make it a slightly better choice for the next version of the game already. Oh.. yep. Make its 3 large mounts overlap more. The sweet spot is too narrow for comfort.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 02:13:50 AM by Schwartz »
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Gothars

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #142 on: September 26, 2016, 02:31:03 AM »

Just slowing the recharge of the Onslaughts burndrive would be a big boost for the two battlecruisers (and to a lesser degree for the Paragon). The main reason they are bad is because they are not the fastest big thing on the battlefield anymore.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #143 on: September 26, 2016, 05:20:17 AM »

A slower burn drive recharge would help bring the Dominator down a bit, too.
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Megas

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #144 on: September 26, 2016, 05:34:47 AM »

I do not disagree that Conquest and Odyssey need help.  At the very least, they can be faster and cheaper to use.

Paragon is very effective and very easy to use... but it is not as fun as Onslaught because Onslaught does things (like killing) faster.  When Paragon had old tachyon lances, it could kill some things across the map, and still had enough firepower to defend itself up close.  Now, it is simply a slow short-ranged chainsaw.  Still deadly, but it fights much like everyone else - bump up against uglies and blast.

Burn drive is fun, and it is not too powerful now that vent canceling has been abolished.  Do not ruin it (more) because other ships are too weak.
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Megas

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #145 on: September 26, 2016, 06:27:29 AM »

Quote
So sniping will constitute a valid, counter-able tactics, instead of god beams from nowhere that arrive the second you drop shields.
Tachyon Lance since 0.53 was hardly a god-beam.  It was really bad at 0.53 with no chain EMP, and sometime later after removal of flux supercharge (with no increased damage compensation) and shield-pierce bug (at the time).  It was weak for the player unless he could stack four or more, which Paragon could do.  Enemy AI could get away with only two.

And stations may need "god-beams" to be a threat.  Paragon may get the range boost because it resembles a mobile station.  Paragon is big (maybe a bit bigger than Onslaught), and it is the slowest ship in the game.  (Burn drive lets Onslaught escape from enemies more easily despite slightly lower top speed.)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 06:44:10 AM by Megas »
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TaLaR

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #146 on: September 26, 2016, 07:26:48 AM »

Tachyon Lance since 0.53 was hardly a god-beam.  It was really bad at 0.53 with no chain EMP, and sometime later after removal of flux supercharge (with no increased damage compensation) and shield-pierce bug (at the time).  It was weak for the player unless he could stack four or more, which Paragon could do.  Enemy AI could get away with only two.

I was mostly referring to really old 5k range tach lance, not sure which game version it was. I think it was only 0.5 efficiency and not too damaging, but the fact that you were pretty much always threatened without notice made it quite OP.
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Megas

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #147 on: September 26, 2016, 08:52:15 AM »

I was mostly referring to really old 5k range tach lance, not sure which game version it was. I think it was only 0.5 efficiency and not too damaging, but the fact that you were pretty much always threatened without notice made it quite OP.
I really wanted to try that out just to see how overpowered it really was.  I read that it had double range and DPS (but no chain EMP) compared to 0.53 version.  Since it is a beam that probably hit for soft flux, I still have doubts that it was overpowered that others claim.  I cannot find any working links here for versions before 0.53.
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Sy

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #148 on: September 26, 2016, 10:41:14 AM »

i agree Odyssey and Conquest could use buffs at least as much as Paragon does, although i don't think they should be able to go toe-to-toe with a true battleship. i'd like Odyssey getting Plasma Jets to give it a clear role as the fastest capital ship, and the new flight decks can be added as needed to really make it worth using.
for Conquest, an obvious change would be to give it a decent shield. it currently has one of the worst shields in the entire game, despite supposedly being a midline ship, and without heavy armor or other powerful defensive features that could make up for it.

one simple way to make battlecruisers at least situationally worth using over battleships, without just reducing cost or making them battleships in anything but name, would be an increase in burn speed to cruiser level. so for fleets that value high campaign-layer mobility (like faction patrols that need to be able to both catch and wipe out pirates or hostile-factions raiders), paying the full cost of a capital ship despite not getting battleship-grade combat power could still be a good deal.


Are we talking fighting against a Paragon or fighting as one? I totally agree with you but I've not experienced the AI ignoring the Paragon as much as you suggest. As a player, of course it makes sense to take everything else out first, assuming the Paragon's fleet gets pulled away from it.
yeah, i was mainly talking about fighting against Paragon. it's not as big an issue when using one yourself, but even there Onslaught currently has longer range and is much better at forcing engagements.

Quote
With officers and ITU, I would hardly call its range "short," though it is less than other ballistic capitals. If anything, its the heavy weapons, not the beams, that need a bump in range to keep other capitals from endlessly kiting it.
i think the +25% from officer/player skill will likely be reduced or even entirely removed with the skill revamp. we don't know many details yet (not does Alex, i believe) but it has been said several times in the past that balancing is mostly done without taking current skills into account, due to the inevitable revamp.

having +100% instead of ITU's +50% wouldn't be a huge difference; a third more, to be exact. and i completely agree that it's mainly assault weapons like Heavy Blasters and Autopulse Lasers that need the range buff, to be more in line with ballistic weapons, which is partly why i'm against giving beams a larger bonus.


Paragon doesn't need anymore perks over, say, Odyssey or Conquest. Personally, I wouldn't touch it at all.
Paragon does need more power/utility over Onslaught, though, and arguably even over cruisers like Dominator or Eagle. Odyssey and Conquest having their own balance problems doesn't change that, and i don't think it would be better in to instead nerf most large ships that can use long-range ballistics.


Another way to change that would be a reversed mobility feature that forces enemies into the Paragon's range. That could for example be a in-built tractor beam, or a weapon that teleports the enemy towards you when you hit.
that would be interesting, but i feel a range increase would better fit Paragon's mini-station feel. if there is ever another fancy capital in vanilla, i'm all for a more creative way of forcing engagements.
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Megas

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Re: Orbital Stations in Combat
« Reply #149 on: September 26, 2016, 11:03:52 AM »

one simple way to make battlecruisers at least situationally worth using over battleships, without just reducing cost or making them battleships in anything but name, would be an increase in burn speed to cruiser level. so for fleets that value high campaign-layer mobility (like faction patrols that need to be able to both catch and wipe out pirates or hostile-factions raiders), paying the full cost of a capital ship despite not getting battleship-grade combat power could still be a good deal.
Cruiser speed would mean fleet does not need a fuel-slurping tug (5 per light-year) to haul a battlecruiser and take a slot out of your fleet limit.  That is good.  I do not use battlecruisers now because they pay full battleship costs but do not give battleship performance.

having +100% instead of ITU's +50% wouldn't be a huge difference; a third more, to be exact. and i completely agree that it's mainly assault weapons like Heavy Blasters and Autopulse Lasers that need the range buff, to be more in line with ballistic weapons, which is partly why i'm against giving beams a larger bonus.
I would like that range boost to be universal to all ships, or at least for all high-tech ships that cannot use ballistics, especially Aurora.  Such short range is why I almost always mount ballistics in hybrids/universals when I need an assault weapon.  Of course, such short range seems intended generally.  As for Paragon, I would love 3000+ range beams because sniping is fun.

+100% of 600 or 700 range is 1200 or 1400, comparable to +50% of 900 (for 1350) or still less than +50% of 1000 (for 1500).  2000 range beams is only 200 more than ITU boosted Gauss cannon.


P.S. If Entoptic Rangefinder perk gets removed, and there are no shot range boosting skills in the revamp, then engagement ranges will be even shorter than it is now (meaning more chainsaw jousting), and the +100% shot range Paragon may get will only be slightly more than what we have now... for one ship only, meaning Starsector will become mostly a melee-fighting game with no long-range sniping allowed.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 11:15:19 AM by Megas »
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